**VENT** "you don't look like you need her" Leader Dog Trainer Rant Vs Target

[lilmissdisney216]

So some of you here may know that I am currently a puppy raiser/trainer for Leader Dog's for the Blind, an organization here in my state that trains Leader Dogs for the blind and visually impaired and deaf as well. Well I am currently training a wonderful black lab named Daisy who at the moment is 9.5 weeks old and shes doing awesome. All that aside let me explain the stages of my rant

Part of the puppy raising responsibility not only includes basic obedience but it also includes exposure and socialization to various situations and environments (i.e. grocery stores, doctors offices, dentist, etc. so on and so forth). I also understand that she is NOT licensed yet and therefore a buisness doesn't have to let me in however 98% of the time if she has her bandana and/or her puppy jacket on there is usually no problem and they are very accomodating. On one particular day I was in the area of a local Target store that was near my home and I had Daisy with me as she was on my errand run for the day and decided that I would bring her in with me. Per the Leader Dog rule, I called ahead and spoke to the manager and inquired as of to whether or not I would be able to bring her into the store. He said that it would be no problem at all and that they have several dogs in training come through and that it would be no issue. He just said to stop at Guest Services when we entered to just make them aware that we were in the building. Elated, I drove to the Target, got Daisy out, made sure she "parked" ( for those new to the service dog lingo; park means "go to the bathroom") Its the command we give for the dogs to relieve themselves. This is done with the jacket and/or bandana off as this is not "work" time), and we headed inside.

No sooner had we taken maybe 5 steps into the store (not even) we were greeted by a security guard who stopped us and this conversation proceeded to happen-

Security Guard: Can I help you?

Me: No, we're fine I'm just coming in to do a bit of shopping.

Security Guard: *points down at Daisy* I'm sorry ma'am we don't allow pets in the building.

Me: Oh, she's not a pet. She's a Leader Dog in training for Leader Dog's for the Blind. She is wearing her bandana and she has a puppy number and tag through Leader Dog that says shes registered through the organization.

Security Guard: Well I'm sorry I can't allow you in with her.

Me: Okay.

Security Guard: Are you blind or visually impaired.

Me: No.... I am not.

Security Guard: Well then I can't let you in.

Me: I was on my way to guest services, I called ahead and got approval to enter from the manager.

Security Guard: I don't care I'm saying no. You don't look like you need her so you need to leave.

Me: thank you very much for your time.


I left. But I was FURIOUS! What right did she have to ask me if I was blind or visually impaired let alone to say you don't look like you need her. First off, blind guide dogs are traditionally in harness when they are working and second off she was just RUDE! I understand that not everywhere can grant me access as Daisy is not licensed but I had called and talked to the manager (more than likely her boss) and had the okay. The way she handled it was terrible and it makes me shudder to think how she handles fully certified service animals. I could've been all kinds of ugly in the store but I was representing Leader Dog and I decided that pressing the issue in any way would not have been good so I politely took my leave and left.

So now I ask you guys, was this situation handled properly? What would you have done had you been in my shoes?

RANT OVER. I just really needed to vent and share that with you all. Thanks for taking the time to read and I appreciate my DIS/DISabilities family so much!!

Meredith and Future Leader Dog Daisy

 

[Piper]

Did you have your cell phone with you? If so, I would have called the manager from outside the store and let him/her know how their security guard was treating people. I would have asked the manager to meet me at the entrance of the store and go in with me to talk calmly with the security guard to reeducate him/her.

If I didn't have a cell phone, then I would have called as soon as I got home. The manager need to be made aware of the problem.

 

[lilmissdisney216]

I called as soon as I was home and spoke with the same manager and he said that this is unacceptable the way I was treated and action would be taken to further prevent the situation. Whether or not that's really been done I have no idea but he was extremely apologetic about what happend

 

[krisnme]

WOW! Just wow.

 

[HeatherLassell]

I called as soon as I was home and spoke with the same manager and he said that this is unacceptable the way I was treated and action would be taken to further prevent the situation. Whether or not that's really been done I have no idea but he was extremely apologetic about what happend

Only way you're gonna know for sure is to take Daisy back and try again.

 

[LockShockBarrel]

I would have asked the guard to go and get the manager right then..calmly of course. I guess its one thing for him to deny you entry, its another thing to site "because you don't look like you need it" as the reason.

 

[videogal1]

No sooner had we taken maybe 5 steps into the store (not even) we were greeted by a security guard who stopped us

I left. But I was FURIOUS! What right did she have to ask me if I was blind or visually impaired let alone to say you don't look like you need her. First off, blind guide dogs are traditionally in harness when they are working and second off she was just RUDE! I understand that not everywhere can grant me access as Daisy is not licensed but I had called and talked to the manager (more than likely her boss) and had the okay. The way she handled it was terrible and it makes me shudder to think how she handles fully certified service animals. I could've been all kinds of ugly in the store but I was representing Leader Dog and I decided that pressing the issue in any way would not have been good so I politely took my leave and left.

So now I ask you guys, was this situation handled properly? What would you have done had you been in my shoes?

Meredith and Future Leader Dog Daisy

Well, there is no such thing as a "fully certified service animal" (This is something that you should understand about service dog law if you're going to be involved with the care and education of service dogs....) One of the first things that someone legally using a service dog needs to know, too, is how to handle situations like these because they do happen. You did fine. Me, in a situation like that, I just keep walking.. Although it's pretty obvious that I need assistance getting around I'm still challenged occasionally...lately by a grocery store customer who shouted at me how I was able to drive and still use a "blind dog"...ummm... You might ask the Leader Dog school how they teach their clients to handle the situation if they are challenged (yes, it still does happen even to those of us whose dogs wear harnesses, which is why the schools need to arm their clients with a thorough dose of service dog law.).

 

[AllyBri]

Confused here
Seems so simple, why not ask for the manager??

 

[lilmissdisney216]

Thanks everyone for the feedback and advice I've been getting so far. I did contact the manager once I had left the store (I was just too upset when I was there and didn't want to get overly emotional and say something I may have not wanted to say).

video gal1- this is all very new to me (the whole training a service animal situation) so in some cases I feel like a fish out of water (which that goes for about 60% of the time I take Daisy anywhere). I am going to contact Leader Dog and ask about all those things that you mentioned in your post.

AllyBri -Believe me this is something that I wanted to do when I was there but given my inner emotions at the time and the fact that the leash has been seen as a telephone wire and any emotion that I feel (i.e. relaxed vs stressed) gets transmitted down to her, I just decided to remove myself from the situation and give the manager a call via phone. I did however acquire the security guard's name for reference during my discussion with the manager.

**Update** Daisy and I tried again today but with another Target to see if the same situation would happen as it did at the previous Target. As I did before I called ahead and spoke with the manager who was very very excited about having us into the store [sounded like a really good sign to me]. Took his name, got in the car, and me and Ben headed off with Daisy to Target. We arrive and I had Ben go in first to alert guest services that we were in the building and they gave us the go ahead to come in. We didn't really encounter any issues in Target, just security and an associate were asking if she was the Leader Dog puppy that they were expecting (no hassle, just simple inquiry). We did our shopping, I thanked them for everything, and we went on about our day.

Needless to say that went a little better than the first Target trip. I plan on visiting the original Target with whom I took issue with this Friday. We shall see what goes on this time....

Meredith

 

[SueM in MN]

I have a bit of a different perspective.
It's obvious that a 9.5 week old puppy is not a service dog. At that age, our dog was still at the breeder. Since this is such a young puppy, you need to prepared to be asked each time you go anywhere.
It's not that common to see an actual Service Dog and, unless there are many Service Dog foster homes in an area, it would be even less likely to see a SD in training, especially one so young.

Legally, even someone using a trained Service Dog can be asked 2 questions (paraphrased, because it's too early to look them up)
1) Is that a Service Dog?
2) What type of service does the dog provide?

We get asked every time we bring DD's dog into Walmart and I would expect to get asked any time the store has a greeter or security. If you don't answer or blow off the question, you risk getting trespassed off of the property. You are entering private property and they do have a legal right to ask.

I agree the security guy was out of line, but you have to realize that someone bringing a puppy in (even with a labeled scarf) does look like they are trying to bring their puppy in to shop.
With a small puppy, you are not likely to get the Service Dog questions. You are more likely to get asked, "May I help you?" or "Pets are not allowed."

Part of the security or greeter's job is to keep people from bringing pets into the store. And, they will do that job. My advice:
Be assertive, but polite, brief and to the point. With a puppy in training, you do have a right to be there because you called ahead and got permission.

Only give out the information you need to give out. The person asking is only looking for the information they need. If you give them more than they need, you risk losing them. The name and age of the dog, the name of the organization or that he/she is registered are not pertinent to the first question.

Remember your message and stick to it. If asked other question, like you were, keep your message in mind and bring everything back to the message.

In our case, when asked:
Is that a Service Animal?
I may feel like answering, "Of course it is. Can't you see the wheelchair?"
My actual answer is "Yes." (my DD can't talk, but she will nod her head) "this is my daughter's Service Dog."
In many cases, that is all they want, I will get a "Have a nice day."
Often no other questions are asked.

If asked:
What service does the dog provide?
My answer would be something pertinent to shopping that the dog does for her, not a whole list of everything he does.

I agree with the other posters that you need to find out what the access laws are for service dogs in training in your state. In some states, they do not have any access unless you call first and get permission. Some states may require you to have the registration of the dog with you and show ot on demand ( which is different than actual service dogs). The agency can tell you that and may have some suggestions about 'scripting' when going into places.

My suggestions for scripting to the questions:
May I help you? or (probably as she gets bigger)
Is that a Service Dog?
"This is a Service Dog in Training. I called [insert manager's name] and got permission to bring the dog in."

That is your basic message and you need to use a brief variation of it to bring the person back to that message if they ask you questions that show they have not gotten that message.

I'm sorry, ma'am. We don't alllow pets into the building.
"She's not a pet. She is a Service Dog in training. I called and they are expecting us."

I'm sorry. I can't allow you in with her.
"Please call the manager. I called to get permission to bring her here for training as a service dog and they are expecting us."

Are you blind or visually impaired?
"No. This is a service dog in training. I got permission from the manager to bring her in for training. Please call the manager for me."

So, basically, try to keep control of the situation and leading the security person back to your message. And, don't be afraid to conta t the manager.

I don't know if you have any Petsmart or Petco stores by you, but they are good places for training. They do allow usually allow customers to bring dogs in, so no one will bat an eye. You just need to be prepared to possibly encounter other dogs (and not all of the owners will have good control of their dog).

 

[lilmissdisney216]

Sue- Thanks so much for the wonderful thorough advice! Like I said I'm so new at this and everything that everyone has told me has been so helpful to me!

She is very young. Typically Leader Dog gives out foster puppies at 7.5 to 8 weeks and it is so hard taking her out in public cause she's so small (as far as I've seen this has been the hardest hurdle during puppy raising). Its really good that I now have a foundation per say for any other conversation I may have when approached in the store (we went to IKEA yesterday and they were awesome!!! Very accomodating and welcoming to having Daisy in the store. They said that they get dogs like her in all the time).

In regards to Petsmart, Leader Dog is really iffy about us taking the dogs around "strange dogs" until they've had their first round of shots. She hasn't had her first round so I have to wait another 2 weeks or so until I can bring her into Petsmart or Petco. But we will be going there eventually. We have done Leader Dog puppy class with our puppy class and they have various outings where we're around other puppies and dogs each week. Its bunches of fun!!!

Anyway, thank you so much for the advice Sue and thanks a million for all the help you give us DIS'ers on the DISabilities board and beyond!!! (was wondering when you would find me here!!)

 

[bopper]

I totally agree with Sue and was wondering why you hadn't taken that approach.

Be polite and matter of fact.

You should state that the manager had given permission but you understand the need for the guard to verify that and you will wait.

 

[Mama Who]

So it sounds like an issue with one employee who has probably been corrected by management by now, not a Target-wide problem? That's good.

Maybe someone in this thread can answer a question for me- Business have the right to refuse a service dog in training with a non-disabled trainer, correct? (Not that that was the case here, just in general.) If I am training the dog for someone else, they are allowed to decline to let me bring the dog because it is not trained yet and not actively working?

 

[lilmissdisney216]

Probably should have tried that Bopper. This was one of my first outtings with Daisy so I was a bit overwhelmed and unsure of how I was supposed to do things should things go haywire. I was very unsure of myself and now that I've gotten some insight and advice I can be better prepared the second time around should I encounter the problem again.

Once again thank you all so much for your advice!! This is one of the many reasons why I love the DIS.

 

[SueM in MN]

So it sounds like an issue with one employee who has probably been corrected by management by now, not a Target-wide problem? That's good.

Maybe someone in this thread can answer a question for me- Business have the right to refuse a service dog in training with a non-disabled trainer, correct? (Not that that was the case here, just in general.) If I am training the dog for someone else, they are allowed to decline to let me bring the dog because it is not trained yet and not actively working?

It varies a bit from state to state whether or not a dog in training is allowed. So you do need to check in your state.

Which kind of leads to an important point in the ADA.
The DOG has no access rights.
A person with a disability has rights to accommodation. Some of the rights include a wheelchair accessible path, captioning for the hearing impaired, etc.
A dog is just another mechanism/device to provide accommodation (sounds strange, but on par with a wheelchair).