WOW DVC Prices !!!

[Spivey378]

This OKW issue has a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you’s.

We will just have to wait and see.

 

[tom1944]

Interesting to me if OKW 2042s that may be auto-extended to 2057 are a better SAP than SSR.

If you buy an OKW 2042 does Disney require a quit claim deed

 

[zumfelde]

I purchased in 1997 to use until 2042. I signed the quiet claim deed because I did not want to pay for extra years because of age. Even though Disney could have handled this whole thing better I would not expect to use after 2042 because that is all I paid for. I expect Disney will be buying every 2042 contract with rofr when there are about 10 years left. Maybe even sending offers to 2042 owners to buy them out. Also the way the dues have increased many 2042 owners will want to sell.

 

[zavandor]

They changed it moving forward so no one who bought with initial language is impacted.

I do not agree.
Anyone buying resale at the original resorts buy under the same POS, same obligations and same rights.
To quote from the original thread, the original POS state that new resorts must join the club (ie the BVTC) with a POS

"substantially similar to this Agreement in all material respects"

It seems very obvious that the Riviera Resort POS is not "substantially similar to this Agreement in all material respects", since it has the resale restrictions. Unless the old POS have been changed (I don't think they have been), then adding resorts with restrictions violates the old POS.
Now, it would be difficult to tell a judge that it affected me and caused me damage, but a new resale purchasers certainly could.

Anyway, sorry this is OT, but I like to remind it to new resale purchasers that they could sue Disney if they want

 

[RoseGold]

If you buy an OKW 2042 does Disney require a quit claim deed

Yes, quitclaims are still being filed now in Orange County as part of resale sales.

There was some resale for a while that was unclear, and it's unclear to me exactly where those sales would fall.

 

[Sandisw]

I do not agree.
Anyone buying resale at the original resorts buy under the same POS, same obligations and same rights.
To quote from the original thread, the original POS state that new resorts must join the club (ie the BVTC) with a POS

"substantially similar to this Agreement in all material respects"

It seems very obvious that the Riviera Resort POS is not "substantially similar to this Agreement in all material respects", since it has the resale restrictions. Unless the old POS have been changed (I don't think they have been), then adding resorts with restrictions violates the old POS.
Now, it would be difficult to tell a judge that it affected me and caused me damage, but a new resale purchasers certainly could.

Anyway, sorry this is OT, but I like to remind it to new resale purchasers that they could sue Disney is they want

Again, if the POS is changed it’s changed, and people have to decide if what was changed is allowed or not…and make the decision from there…

My point was that owners who didn’t do anything for the extension may have a case..and maybe so would current resale buyers too for restrictions….but in both cases, the notion that owners who feel they have case in which DVD overstepped should be allowed to make that case

And, with the notion that OKW original owners must sign a QCD to sell could be seen negatively as well..which is impacting their resale value.

 

[AstroBlasters]

I know this DVC pricing thread has turned into an OKW legal discussion…. But does anyone think the current run on deposits and corresponding stock price drop of mid-size banks make shake the tree of some DVC sellers or would be sellers? Could it also cause a pause for some potential buyers?

 

[Brian Noble]

If you buy an OKW 2042 does Disney require a quit claim deed

As I understand it, yes. It is a condition of transfer that an un-extended OKW contract have a quit-claim associated with it. If you neither extended nor disclaimed, you cannot transfer until you do.

(I have no idea what Disney would do if you refused and tried to transfer anyway.)

 

[Imurhuckleberry]

This OKW issue has a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you’s.

We will just have to wait and see.

lotta strands man...lotta strands

 

[Sandisw]

I know this DVC pricing thread has turned into an OKW legal discussion…. But does anyone think the current run on deposits and corresponding stock price drop of mid-size banks make shake the tree of some DVC sellers or would be sellers? Could it also cause a pause for some potential buyers?

I think everything that is going on impacts the prices so certain sellers may decide to go lower, some may pull back contracts and same can happen to the buyer pool.

 

[tom1944]

Resale sellers are looking who will backstop Disney ROFR like SVB depositors got.

 

[ocdb8r1]

I think SVB will have minimal impact on the DVC resale market until any wider economic implications are felt. I don't think the average DVC owner putting their contract up for sale could care less that a mid-market bank has failed....especially given HSBC looks to be coming in to save the day and the fed is responding aggressively to ensure other banks don't face the same fate. If this thing gets legs, who knows what happens.

As others have pointed out, the lack of ROFR by Disney is the single biggest contributor to the decline in prices. Most of the discussions seem to focus on ROFR's ability to set a "floor" for sales transactions, but there is little discussion of the straight-out demand that is lost by Disney not acting as a "buyer". There is a glut of contracts chasing many fewer buyers. In the last few months (solely by reading this board) it appears there have been a decent amount of people jumping in to snap up bargains (relative to 12 months ago) but even in good economic times that demand has to eventually wane as well. Even the DVC enthusiasts reach their own cash flow limitations and some will decide enough points is enough even if they can afford more. If Disney continues to not be a "buyer" of contracts, I think prices will go lower. I caveat that by noting that we are exiting the seasonally higher "listing" period and so perhaps listings will also trail off enough to balance eventual decrease in demand.

The one other wildcard is what Disney does with on-site rates and how healthy the DVC point rental market remains. I think there are a lot more people out there dependent on rentals to finance their continued ownership than we hear talked about. If the rental market falters (and there have already been some signs of decreasing prices and a glut of rental point availability) then I think we'll also see more sellers who are very motivated to get out as they can't continue to maintain ownership without a certain amount of rental income.

 

[DonMacGregor]

The one other wildcard is what Disney does with on-site rates and how healthy the DVC point rental market remains. I think there are a lot more people out there dependent on rentals to finance their continued ownership than we hear talked about. If the rental market falters (and there have already been some signs of decreasing prices and a glut of rental point availability) then I think we'll also see more sellers who are very motivated to get out as they can't continue to maintain ownership without a certain amount of rental income.

This is an area that I don't think gets enough attention, at least from the perspective presented. We "know" (because it's been stated flat-out) that there are a good number of owners who very purposely buy a significant number of additional points, with the sole intention of renting those points to fund annual dues. There are several board members who have literally hundreds and hundreds of points they rent out for that specific purpose. A 40% or 50% reduction in that rental "income" could certainly motivate someone to sell some of those points.

 

[HIRyeDVC]

This is an area that I don't think gets enough attention, at least from the perspective presented. We "know" (because it's been stated flat-out) that there are a good number of owners who very purposely buy a significant number of additional points, with the sole intention of renting those points to fund annual dues. There are several board members who have literally hundreds and hundreds of points they rent out for that specific purpose. A 40% or 50% reduction in that rental "income" could certainly motivate someone to sell some of those points.

I don't think it's gets a lot of discussion because it's probably what owners fear most. Not having an "out" for our points. I think the rental market will also get saturated but as long as it provides a significant discount from rack rate, there will always be a market for me. I'm really starting to like the idea of the vacation swap program that the dvc rental store is doing. I think it's brilliant, renting out my points without incurring a 1099. I hope the idea sticks.

 

[MFMont]

This is an area that I don't think gets enough attention, at least from the perspective presented. We "know" (because it's been stated flat-out) that there are a good number of owners who very purposely buy a significant number of additional points, with the sole intention of renting those points to fund annual dues. There are several board members who have literally hundreds and hundreds of points they rent out for that specific purpose. A 40% or 50% reduction in that rental "income" could certainly motivate someone to sell some of those points.

Where are you seeing this glut of points? While it may be apparent with the glut of professional rental options that now exist, I just don't see evidence with direct rentals. I would agree that there may not be enough room for so many intermediaries, but the only thing that would impact the general market would seem to be rack rates vs. rental rates. People that are willing to do some work will not likely be impacted very much. That being said, renting your points out yourself is not a cake walk. There is certainly some work to it. I also think that we here and those that rent points are a very small minority. I know so many people that own these points and could not be bothered to rent them even when they don't go. Most haven't got a clue or care of using their timeshare properly or appropriately. I run into people all the time that either fit this bill or have relatives that do. Its amazing to me that someone can drop $30,000+ grand on a whim and let it fade into oblivion.

 

[RoseGold]

There are several board members who have literally hundreds and hundreds of points they rent out for that specific purpose. A 40% or 50% reduction in that rental "income" could certainly motivate someone to sell some of those points.

This isn't about a few hundred points held be a few individuals. You can see it in the deeds. Tons of these are professionals holding in LLCs. Lots of companies do this for a living. If DVC messes with rentals, pros will be the first out.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

Interesting to me if OKW 2042s that may be auto-extended to 2057 are a better SAP than SSR.

OKW 2042’s that you purchase resale will not be auto-extended. Those are different from the people who owned 2042 at the time of the extension and didn’t execute a quitclaim. Those might be auto-extended.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Where are you seeing this glut of points? While it may be apparent with the glut of professional rental options that now exist, I just don't see evidence with direct rentals.

Where, exactly, did I say anything about a glut of points? I specifically referenced those individual owners who purchase extra points with the express purpose of renting them out to offset member dues. It's not a hypothetical, it's a stated fact that many have made on Facebook, this forum and others. My post related to the effect on those individuals should the rental market drop, and had nothing to do with their effect on the rental market itself.

I made no mention of professional renters, because those are debated ad nauseum. That is why I specifically said "an area that I don't think gets enough attention".

 

[DonMacGregor]

This isn't about a few hundred points held be a few individuals. You can see it in the deeds. Tons of these are professionals holding in LLCs. Lots of companies do this for a living. If DVC messes with rentals, pros will be the first out.

What isn't about a few hundred points? I simply raised a hypothetical about those people who buy extra points to rent to offset dues, regardless of how many there are or how many points they own. I made zero reference to any other circumstances, professional renters, whatever, as those are discussed over and over. Kinda why I specifically said "an area that I don't think gets enough attention". My only reference to "hundreds of points" related to the fact that there ARE some individual owners who own hundreds of points, just to rent them out to cover dues and if the rental rates are reduced by 40%-50%, then those owners now have 40%-50% less rental income to pay their dues with. I also made zero reference to DVC "messing with rentals".

If you want to debate/discuss those other entities holding points, that's cool, but my post had absolutely nothing to do with that and was simply a musing about what will happen to people who can't pay those dues through point rentals.

 

[RoseGold]

What isn't about a few hundred points? I simply raised a hypothetical about those people who buy extra points to rent to offset dues, regardless of how many there are or how many points they own. I made zero reference to any other circumstances, professional renters, whatever, as those are discussed over and over. Kinda why I specifically said "an area that I don't think gets enough attention". My only reference to "hundreds of points" related to the fact that there ARE some individual owners who own hundreds of points, just to rent them out to cover dues and if the rental rates are reduced by 40%-50%, then those owners now have 40%-50% less rental income to pay their dues with. I also made zero reference to DVC "messing with rentals".

If you want to debate/discuss those other entities holding points, that's cool, but my post had absolutely nothing to do with that and was simply a musing about what will happen to people who can't pay those dues through point rentals.

You are saying renting is tight. If you are right, and rental demand is so low it is impacting resale value, the people who exit will be professionals. Professionals aren't going to move trips around or splash some more points on the next trip, they are going to sell.

Rental rates seem to be holding fine to me on these boards and on Facebook, so I don't see that happening right now. You could see that a lot of the recent purchases were actually professionals.

If Disney decided to mess with renting or make it difficult with hoops or limits or whatever, it could also really impact resale value, even if resale demand were still strong. That is possible and is happening in other systems, like Wyndham.