Open letter to Disney concerning new TSA full body scan.

[eliza61]

I guess i was a little wrong the tsa dose have thier own k-9 teams but mostly use local police k-9s.



http://www.tsa.gov/press/happenings/alb_canine.shtm

Also most of the time when they bring in local police it's for backup to a problem. for routine security you could not constantly call on local township police. Philadelphia is cutting back already due to lack of funds on their police and fire department. they are having what we call "rolling black outs". that's when on monday one local station closes then on tuesday it's another local station, etc etc. So no way in heck are they then going to move expensive resources to cover screening at a major airport.


Also when you see local police at an airport they are doing survallence (spelling ouch). pretty much walking around checking things out. IF a crime occurs they will respond but you donot see NYC police scanning people at security and remember we are talking airplane security and bomb detection. So unless you rob a store at the airport the philly police are not going to pat you down.
My argument about cost stands.

 

[Lewisc]

The TSA checks the passenger list supplied by the airline against watch lists and "no fly" lists. That would be a complete waste of time if the TSA didn't check your ID and match it to your boarding pass.

Doesn't have anything to do with enforcing airline polices regarding transferability of tickets.

 

[CPT Tripss]

The TSA checks the passenger list supplied by the airline against watch lists and "no fly" lists. That would be a complete waste of time if the TSA didn't check your ID and match it to your boarding pass.

Doesn't have anything to do with enforcing airline polices regarding transferability of tickets.

Sorry Lew, if the airline does the match and then checks my ID before giving me a BP they have effectively performed the necessary checks. The TSA loupe, black light and multiple squiggles are just time wasters and make work.

 

[eliza61]

WBI - whole body imager, the name was recently changed by TSA to AIT - advanced imaging technology so they were not openly acknowledging that one's whole body was being seen.

First and foremost, TSA must let citizens and other flyers know what to expect when going through airport security. That's the only way we know whether we are experiencing the actions of a rogue employee or proper screening.

Then the process should be along the lines of
Metal detectors and puffers as primary screening for everyone.
Escalate as necessary to explosive swabs if puffer alarms, wanding if WTMD and if neither of these resolve the issue, then a "frisk".
Eliminate shoe removal - swab if an alarm or if the shoes appear to be tampered with.
Eliminate the ID check - that's nothing more than a way for the airline to keep me from selling my "nonrefundable" ticket to you.
Eliminate shoe removal unless explosive detector alarms and then xray shoes. Most of us know which of our shoes have metal and will alarm and most of us are bright enough not to wear them to the airport . . . if just a metal alarm, visual examine shoes and xray if they appear tampered with.

Permit sealed containers of liquids as carry ons. Permit unsealed beverages when the passenger drinks from the container.

TSA scanning of everything that goes into the baggage hold of an airplane . . . eliminate "trusted shipper."

CPT, one last question. So you want to know if I get advanced notice that I am going to have to go through a scanner or that a scanner is being used and that its a whole body one? I'm not sure about the "rouge employee" thing.
Last week they had signs like this right before the scanner where you put your bags through.

http://www.philly.com/philly/galler..._security_adds_option_of_full-body_scans.html

I didn't take this picture as I travel on business and generally don't take a camera. I will totally admit that I didn't even read the thing. I'm your proverbial sheep, I pretty much followed the person in front of me. LOL.

 

[sam_gordon]

Sorry Lew, if the airline does the match and then checks my ID before giving me a BP they have effectively performed the necessary checks. The TSA loupe, black light and multiple squiggles are just time wasters and make work.

But airlines don't check ID before issuing a BP. How many BPs are getting printed out at home by travellers vs. handed out at the counter? Or are you advocating we need to go back to EVERYONE checking in at the counter?

 

[eliza61]

But airlines don't check ID before issuing a BP. How many BPs are getting printed out at home by travellers vs. handed out at the counter? Or are you advocating we need to go back to EVERYONE checking in at the counter?

Heck, what about people like me who travel on business. My poor Administrative assistant doesn't even trust me to print my own out. She says every time I go into her system I screw it up. I get a pack with ticket, boarding pass and a name tag to show an adult in case I get lost.

 

[Lewisc]

Sorry Lew, if the airline does the match and then checks my ID before giving me a BP they have effectively performed the necessary checks. The TSA loupe, black light and multiple squiggles are just time wasters and make work.

Many passengers get their BPs online or from airport kiosks. Checking the ID also makes sure the passenger who's name is on the BP, the person who cleared the watch list, is the person walking through security.

Yes, this also makes it harder, but not impossible, for passengers to "cheat" the airlines by transferring a non-transferrable ticket to a friend or relative. You already, sort of admitted, this is your real issue.

 

[CPT Tripss]

OK . . . spelling and typos!!! ROGUE employee. But if you see a TSAer with too much rouge, you'll regret not having a camera!
As far as the scanners go, if you get to walk right through it, it isn't a WBI, it a WTMD (walk through metal detector). If you have to stop and assume a specific position, it's a WBI. If you are doing this as a "learning experience," and are willing to get a pat down, then simply say "I opt out." If you do that, from that point on pay very close attention to what happens to you and your belongings.
No problem if you choose to follow the path of least resistance . . .
I have noticed that a lot of people that go through the WBI get a patdown anyway (haven't been through a WBI checkpoint in PHL as yet. I'm interested in what you observe.

Sam
As far as printing the boarding pass at home and TSA doing a match. If you are on the no fly list (NFL), you can't print your boarding pass at home. Show me one, just one TSA document checker that ever double checks a BP and ID against a list. Do you think it's possible that one of the bad guys just might have some authentic looking, if not authentic ID in a name that will breeze right through the NFL checks.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Many passengers get their BPs online or from airport kiosks. Checking the ID also makes sure the passenger who's name is on the BP, the person who cleared the watch list, is the person walking through security.
Yes, this also makes it harder, but not impossible, for passengers to "cheat" the airlines by transferring a non-transferrable ticket to a friend or relative. You already, sort of admitted, this is your real issue.

And this matters how if the person and their belongings are effectively screened? How many terrorists have been caught this way?

 

[Lewisc]

As far as printing the boarding pass at home and TSA doing a match. If you are on the no fly list (NFL), you can't print your boarding pass at home. Show me one, just one TSA document checker that ever double checks a BP and ID against a list. Do you think it's possible that one of the bad guys just might have some authentic looking, if not authentic ID in a name that will breeze right through the NFL checks.

A person not on the no fly list makes the reservation and prints the BP. Or a person makes the reservation in the name of someone not on the no fly list. A person who's on the no fly list uses the BP. Screening passengers against the no fly list only makes sense if security makes sure the person going through security is the same person who's name is on the BP.

In other words security wants to be sure the passenger named on the BP, who was checked against the no fly list, is the person who's going through security.

Likewise airlines want to be sure the passenger who booked the non-transferrable ticket is the person who's using the ticket.

And this matters how if the person and their belongings are effectively screened? How many terrorists have been caught this way?

The argument is the procedures deters at least some terrorists from flying. The argument is no security measure is 100% effective. Some stuff is going to be missed by security. Some (many?) terrorists aren't on the no-fly list.

 

[disney david]

You're wrong. I know canine officer in NYC there is a big difference between police dogs and bomb squad dogs. most of the time they are not interchangeable and most officers are not interchangeable. so my argument makes perfect sense.

Ahh, I already see you corrected your mistake. I'll end it here.

I never said you could use any dog to be a bomb sniffing dog i know their a difference. I dont want to argue on this so that all i am going to say. By the way it the nypd who handle the air ports it the port authorty that handle al the new york air ports and the have their k-9 walking the air port and they are not bomb squad they are specail trained officers. My mother works for the fed in new york and they have a bomb sniffing dog it not a bomb squad dog just a regualr fedreal police dog that trained to sniff out bombs.


I think where i got misunderstood was with saying about cbp dogs they have many dogs each one trained in different way one is a bomb sniffing dog and another one is a money sniffing dog and so on.


Have a safe trip and dont worry about the scanners it a little part of your vacation your going to disney world it time to be happy. I not sure if you have trip planned but when you do please have fun and be safe.

 

[sam_gordon]

Sam
As far as printing the boarding pass at home and TSA doing a match. If you are on the no fly list (NFL), you can't print your boarding pass at home. Show me one, just one TSA document checker that ever double checks a BP and ID against a list. Do you think it's possible that one of the bad guys just might have some authentic looking, if not authentic ID in a name that will breeze right through the NFL checks.

You said the airlines check ID to issue a boarding pass. I'm simply pointing out they don't. The TSA document checker doesn't NEED to check a list. You even say if someone is on the NFL, they don't get a boarding pass. So I guess your argument is anyone WITH a boarding pass MUST be cleared? Do I have that correct?

So, let's say I'm on the NFL. At some point, I'm going to learn that. When I make my next reservation, I'll put in 'John Smith' as my name. I print out my BP, with the name of John Smith, and I'm free to go through security (after all, your argument is the ID isn't needed right?). How does that help?

And this matters how if the person and their belongings are effectively screened? How many terrorists have been caught this way?

How many terrorists have been caught by metal detectors? If you use effectiveness as your baseline for what security measures are used, we wouldn't have any.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Sorry Lew, if the airline does the match and then checks my ID before giving me a BP they have effectively performed the necessary checks. The TSA loupe, black light and multiple squiggles are just time wasters and make work.

Loupe? Black light? Squiggles? Silly me. Here, all this time, I've been thinking the TSO comparing my ID to my boarding pass shows them that the person to whom the boarding pass was issued is the same person who's actually presenting it - not someone on the no-fly list to whom the boarding pass was handed off by an accomplice, or some other trickery.

But what do I know. I'm just your normal everyday skeptic

Maybe you should google him and get a correct address.

Yeah. Roland Street is actually in Charlestown, a city abutting Boston. Elm Street - the company's actual address - is about 2/3 of a mile away from the Roland Street address, just over the border in Somerville, another city that abuts Boston.

The ZIP Code is wrong.

 

[drew64]

Actaully, the current TSA system does nothing to guarantee that the actual person who has a boarding pass actually is who boards the plane.

The one system put in place shortly after 9/11 which actually accomplished this goal - and is used by most countries - was discontinued by the TSA.

This is to check IDs at the boarding gate againt the boarding pass.

As the system in the US is now, 2 people can go through security,show IDs, and once through, change boaridng passes and board a different flight then the one they booked and TSA checked at security.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Sam_ and Kayt

Chances are the bad guys know how to make or get IDs that will pass muster. Assuming that, the TSA document check only verifies that the names on the two items match.

I have gone through security (and gotten the squiggles) on one boarding pass and then used another (non-squiggled) boarding pass to get on the plane. I printed a couple copies at home just "in case."

 

[CPT Tripss]

Actaully, the current TSA system does nothing to guarantee that the actual person who has a boarding pass actually is who boards the plane.

The one system put in place shortly after 9/11 which actually accomplished this goal - and is used by most countries - was discontinued by the TSA.

This is to check IDs at the boarding gate againt the boarding pass.

As the system in the US is now, 2 people can go through security,show IDs, and once through, change boaridng passes and board a different flight then the one they booked and TSA checked at security.

True . . . not that it matters if they were screened and cleared to fly.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Sam_ and Kayt

Chances are the bad guys know how to make or get IDs that will pass muster. Assuming that, the TSA document check only verifies that the names on the two items match.

I have gone through security (and gotten the squiggles) on one boarding pass and then used another (non-squiggled) boarding pass to get on the plane. I printed a couple copies at home just "in case."

I'm done. I'm tired of reading your skepticism and your actions to show the TSA in ineffective. Good for you for undermining the systems in place, and for bragging about it, intentionally or not.

One last comment: so two people who proved their respective identifications at the ticket counter and that they and their identifications and their boarding passes each matched when they passed through security get on each others' flights at the gates. Unless one of them is intentionally committing fraud - e.g. flying to a country from which they're legally banned - who gives a rat's patooty?

 

[CPT Tripss]

I'm done. I'm tired of reading your skepticism and your actions to show the TSA in ineffective. Good for you for undermining the systems in place, and for bragging about it, intentionally or not.

One last comment: so two people who proved their respective identifications at the ticket counter and that they and their identifications and their boarding passes each matched when they passed through security get on each others' flights at the gates. Unless one of them is intentionally committing fraud - e.g. flying to a country from which they're legally banned - who gives a rat's patooty?

What system?

The whole point is that ID does not equal security. Frankly, who cares about ID when the screening is good? And if the screening is bad, well it doesn't matter whether Richard Reid's ID matched now does it?

I reckon the immigration folks at the destination will take care of any problem.

 

[sam_gordon]

What system?

The whole point is that ID does not equal security. Frankly, who cares about ID when the screening is good? And if the screening is bad, well it doesn't matter whether Richard Reid's ID matched now does it?

I reckon the immigration folks at the destination will take care of any problem.

The ID checks at security simply show that passengers who DO clear security are not on the "no-fly" list. Yes, people can make fake IDs. I guess since someone can get around the rule, we should do away with it? Let's do away with speed limits then. After all, no one has to follow them so why have them?

So what is YOUR solution? You seem to be saying (over and over again) that the systems in place don't work or are ineffective. Therefore, let's do away with all security?

 

[maxiesmom]

The ID checks at security simply show that passengers who DO clear security are not on the "no-fly" list. Yes, people can make fake IDs. I guess since someone can get around the rule, we should do away with it? Let's do away with speed limits then. After all, no one has to follow them so why have them?

So what is YOUR solution? You seem to be saying (over and over again) that the systems in place don't work or are ineffective. Therefore, let's do away with all security?

Funny. This is pretty much what I was just thinking. It seems that poster just thinks there should be no security as it is either ineffective or intrusive.