Open letter to Disney concerning new TSA full body scan.

[goofy4tink]

WBI - whole body imager, the name was recently changed by TSA to AIT - advanced imaging technology so they were not openly acknowledging that one's whole body was being seen.

First and foremost, TSA must let citizens and other flyers know what to expect when going through airport security. That's the only way we know whether we are experiencing the actions of a rogue employee or proper screening.

Then the process should be along the lines of
Metal detectors and puffers as primary screening for everyone.
Escalate as necessary to explosive swabs if puffer alarms, wanding if WTMD and if neither of these resolve the issue, then a "frisk".
Eliminate shoe removal - swab if an alarm or if the shoes appear to be tampered with.
Eliminate the ID check - that's nothing more than a way for the airline to keep me from selling my "nonrefundable" ticket to you.
Eliminate shoe removal unless explosive detector alarms and then xray shoes. Most of us know which of our shoes have metal and will alarm and most of us are bright enough not to wear them to the airport . . . if just a metal alarm, visual examine shoes and xray if they appear tampered with.

Permit sealed containers of liquids as carry ons. Permit unsealed beverages when the passenger drinks from the container.

TSA scanning of everything that goes into the baggage hold of an airplane . . . eliminate "trusted shipper."

Bingo...this is where I want to see better security. It's way too lax. I'm much more worried about what's in a piece of cargo than I am about the person sitting three rows in front of me. As airlines increase checked bag fees, they are able to take on more profitable cargo..and God only knows what's in that cargo..underneath me.

OK . . . spelling and typos!!! ROGUE employee. But if you see a TSAer with too much rouge, you'll regret not having a camera!
As far as the scanners go, if you get to walk right through it, it isn't a WBI, it a WTMD (walk through metal detector). If you have to stop and assume a specific position, it's a WBI. If you are doing this as a "learning experience," and are willing to get a pat down, then simply say "I opt out." If you do that, from that point on pay very close attention to what happens to you and your belongings.
No problem if you choose to follow the path of least resistance . . .
I have noticed that a lot of people that go through the WBI get a patdown anyway (haven't been through a WBI checkpoint in PHL as yet. I'm interested in what you observe.

Sam
As far as printing the boarding pass at home and TSA doing a match. If you are on the no fly list (NFL), you can't print your boarding pass at home. Show me one, just one TSA document checker that ever double checks a BP and ID against a list. Do you think it's possible that one of the bad guys just might have some authentic looking, if not authentic ID in a name that will breeze right through the NFL checks.

I've been through the WBI several times..have not had any further 'security' measures after that.

 

[Lewisc]

Eliminate the ID check - that's nothing more than a way for the airline to keep me from selling my "nonrefundable" ticket to you.

Actaully, the current TSA system does nothing to guarantee that the actual person who has a boarding pass actually is who boards the plane.

The ID checks at security simply show that passengers who DO clear security are not on the "no-fly" list. Yes, people can make fake IDs. .......So what is YOUR solution? You seem to be saying (over and over again) that the systems in place don't work or are ineffective. Therefore, let's do away with all security?

BINGO. The present system ensures passengers who go through security have been checked against the no-fly list.

Checking ID at security makes it more difficult to transfer your non-transferable ticket to someone else. Any increase in security that also checked IDs/BPs as you board the plane would make it impossible. Spot checks would also limit the ability to transfer tickets. The poster I quoted in the top of this post tells us this is objection.

 

[CPT Tripss]

Bingo...this is where I want to see better security. It's way too lax. I'm much more worried about what's in a piece of cargo than I am about the person sitting three rows in front of me. As airlines increase checked bag fees, they are able to take on more profitable cargo..and God only knows what's in that cargo..underneath me.


I've been through the WBI several times..have not had any further 'security' measures after that.

Glad we agree that the luggage hold of an aircraft is the weakest link.

Good to hear your experience with WBI . . . did you happen to notice if others were selected for pat down after WBI?

 

[CPT Tripss]

If any readers think I want no screening, go back and read - http://www.disboards.com/showpost.php?p=38821560&postcount=278

I want effective screening and more intrusive screenings only when there is some reasonable cause.

 

[CPT Tripss]

BINGO. The present system ensures passengers who go through security have been checked against the no-fly list.

Checking ID at security makes it more difficult to transfer your non-transferable ticket to someone else. Any increase in security that also checked IDs/BPs as you board the plane would make it impossible. Spot checks would also limit the ability to transfer tickets. The poster I quoted in the top of this post tells us this is objection.

No Lew, the revenue protection isn't my objection. My point is that all the ID/BP match does is protect revenue.

To think that terrorists have no ability to make or obtain fake ID that will pass muster is just wrong.

To date no terrorist has been caught at the pre boarding security checkpoints . . .

 

[N965VJ]

Bingo...this is where I want to see better security. It's way too lax. I'm much more worried about what's in a piece of cargo than I am about the person sitting three rows in front of me.

Air cargo is not visible to the TSA's intended audience for Security Theatre.

So before you gripe about how things should be done. be truthful and ask if you are willing to make the sacrifices that good security require. Both monetarily and morally.

TSA's proposed budget is $8.2 billion next year.

So what is YOUR solution? You seem to be saying (over and over again) that the systems in place don't work or are ineffective. Therefore, let's do away with all security?

Funny. This is pretty much what I was just thinking. It seems that poster just thinks there should be no security as it is either ineffective or intrusive.

I think there is a misconception that those who oppose the Nude-O-Scopes do not want effective security; nothing could be further than the truth. I am opposed to Security Theatre, and its associated costs, both financial, and in terms of encroachment on liberty and freedom.

All of my proposals would provide real security, much better than we have now, at a significant cost savings while protecting our liberties.

 

[goofy4tink]

Glad we agree that the luggage hold of an aircraft is the weakest link.

Good to hear your experience with WBI . . . did you happen to notice if others were selected for pat down after WBI?

Didn't really notice. The people I did see getting that 'extra' screening had come from the regular metal detectors. One poor elderly couple were upset to begin with when they found they had to remove their shoes. Nothing the TSA agent said made any difference. They just kept saying, 'we're old, we can't take off our shoes, let us through.'....I had to feel badly for the agents. They truly were trying to be caring but enough was finally enough when they saw the huge gridlock behind this couple....I was lucky enough to be right behind them!! They finally just took them off to the side and had them wanded...and had them sit down to remove their shoes.
The thing that bothered me though??? And no, it has nothing to do with the TSA. That elderly couple saw the 'shorter' line and jumped right into it..without noticing that it was the 'black diamond' lane for experienced flyers. Practically shoved me out of the way in their rush. Then, for them to get to the belt area and refuse to remove their shoes made me nuts. And the business travelers behind me??? Not a happy bunch of people. Those guys don't leave a ton of time for sitting around at the gate. They like to arrive at the gate just before boarding starts...so a holdup at security isn't going to make them happy campers.

 

[CPT Tripss]

TSA really needs to provide seats close to the WTMDs so people can sit, remove shoes, walk through detector, sit and put shoes on again if they are going to continue the removal requirement.

This comment is in no way an endorsement of the existing requirement. It's just plain common sense for older people, people with disabilities, and people who can not easily remove shoes and require shoes that give more support than slip ons.

I guess they weren't skiers. Did the line have signage?

 

[eliza61]

Hey guys, greetings from cold Chicago. I'm here for the day on a business meeting so here is my pat down experience from this morning. I had a 7:55 am flight to chicago from philly to Ohare on usairways.

Disclosures: I had planned on asking for the pat down instead of the scanner so I wore a sports bra and a lycra short sleeve shirt. Due to scare stories of agents mugging people I purposely wore a top that was clingy and smooth and easy to see the outline of any thing underneath.

Disclosure #2. I have a twic card. for those of you not familar a twic card is a security clearance card issued by the government to transportation personnel and others. My work takes me to oil refineries and natural gas rigs so a twic card gets me into some places where security is restricted. If you have a problem with the feds knowing your business the twic card is not for you, you give up a lot of personal info and bioscans when you get one.

Disclosure #3. Last night in a pre-investigative interview. I called my good friend Melody who is a retired NYC cop and a friend of mine Marc who is a retired Philly cop and who works at the naval shipyard in Philadelphia as a contract security personnel. I asked them about working for the TSA at 17 bucks a hour. Marc simply laughed at me and hung up. Mel said she got paid more to do security at Yankee stadium during the playoffs last month. She said the only reason she would work for the TSA was perhaps to get the medical benefits but probably not even then since she is a retired cop she already gets a great pension and state benefits. I stand by my original comment.



I arrived at the airport around 6 am. I do not have luggage as I'm catching a late flight out of chicago tonight. I do have a 'big" book bag that I have my laptop, buches of magazines, a small toothbrush, Ipod, cell phone, a pair of sneaks and my wallet.

I go in my normal "business" flyers lane. very small flight today only seems to be 17 people so far.

Airport is not very busy at all, not sure if Thursday is considered a high flying day. my shoes are off and I have my cell phone and ipod in a clear plastic case that I found that's great for just this purpose. I don't drive ot the airport so no keys for me. I step up to the belt whip out my laptop from my bag, put every thing on the belt. I ask the tsa agent who is directing me to the full body thing can I opt for the pat down. here is probably my only complaint. TSA agent says yes and then screams at the top of his lungs "OPT OUT". Jeez dude, scream a little louder why dontcha' I think some on in Kansas didn't hear you LOL. now is that really necessary? give the guys some walkie talkies sheez. Agent politely ask me to move over a little so the next person can proceed. I grab my stuff and by the time I turn back around 2 female agents are there to escort me a ways off. The agent ask me to put my stuff on a table to side. I do so. she then instructs me to hold my arms out to the side. I do so. pat down begins. this thing was so fast I'm not sure how people have time to be groped? She went down the front side of me, I honestly could not tell you with what side of her hand. I'm not joking, girl friend was speedy gonzalez. went down both sides of my legs. I had already spread my legs out about shoulder width apart. told me to turn around and then did my back. the only agent simply stood there.
total time 90 secs tops.

 

[eliza61]

1) TSA agents were neither friendly or rude. they did not engage me in small talk, smile or any thing else. their instructions were crystal clear and I had no problems following or understanding them. I did not ask any questions of them.

2) It was super fast. much faster than the scanners, now I'm not sure if Chicago in the winter is prime vacation destination but I could see how the scanners may hold up a line to Orlando.

3) One gripe was the first agent yelling out "OPT out".

4) No way under any circumstances could this be considered groping, rough, or embarrasing. Like I said girlfriend moved quick and percise.

5) I agree with cargo hold and containers need full security also.

Bottom line: it was a non event. I didn't feel violated nor did I get any warm and fuzzy feelings.

Boarding pass issues. easiest way to get around that is to not issue boarding pass until passenger is at the airport with secure id. Oh yeah we can't do that because God forbid we actually have to wait.

Trained TSA agents that are trained to spot body language and suspicious behaviour. sounds good proven effective. oh I forgot I only want to pay 27,000 bucks a year.

Questions proven to flag suspicious behaviour: Germany and Greece have proven it's effectiveness for the last 7 years. Oops can't do that it's too intrusive.

My last thoughts. My problem with blaming the TSA is that I really think we want some thing unattenable. I have no experience with this puff smoke things mentioned before but from the methods that seem to be working abroad and in Israel we would not embrace due to cost and privacy issues. So until we come to that realization we will continue to have "security theater"

Safe travels all.

 

[disney david]

1) TSA agents were neither friendly or rude. they did not engage me in small talk, smile or any thing else. their instructions were crystal clear and I had no problems following or understanding them. I did not ask any questions of them.

2) It was super fast. much faster than the scanners, now I'm not sure if Chicago in the winter is prime vacation destination but I could see how the scanners may hold up a line to Orlando.

3) One gripe was the first agent yelling out "OPT out".

4) No way under any circumstances could this be considered groping, rough, or embarrasing. Like I said girlfriend moved quick and percise.

5) I agree with cargo hold and containers need full security also.

Bottom line: it was a non event. I didn't feel violated nor did I get any warm and fuzzy feelings.

Boarding pass issues. easiest way to get around that is to not issue boarding pass until passenger is at the airport with secure id. Oh yeah we can't do that because God forbid we actually have to wait.

Trained TSA agents that are trained to spot body language and suspicious behaviour. sounds good proven effective. oh I forgot I only want to pay 27,000 bucks a year.

Questions proven to flag suspicious behaviour: Germany and Greece have proven it's effectiveness for the last 7 years. Oops can't do that it's too intrusive.

My last thoughts. My problem with blaming the TSA is that I really think we want some thing unattenable. I have no experience with this puff smoke things mentioned before but from the methods that seem to be working abroad and in Israel we would not embrace due to cost and privacy issues. So until we come to that realization we will continue to have "security theater"

Safe travels all.

Thank you for posting this i glad you had a safe trip and didn't have any major problem going throu securty.

For those who are blameing the agents for this:

It one thing to blame the tsa and dhs for putting the machines and another to blame the tsa officers for this it not their idea to put them in. They have to do their job just like you have a job to do so do they you get paid for what you do and they get paid to do theirs.

 

[N965VJ]

Trained TSA agents that are trained to spot body language and suspicious behaviour. sounds good proven effective.

Actually, no.

TSA's Program to Spot Terrorists a $200M Sham?

<>

In fact, sources tell CBS News a Government Accountability Office investigation is raising serious questions about the program.

The GAO uncovered at least 16 individuals later accused of involvement in terrorist plots flew 23 different times through U.S. airports since 2004. Yet none were stopped by TSA behavior detection officers working at those airports.

"It's a disgrace," said aviation security analyst Charles Slepian. "Why didn't they stop them? If it worked, you would catch them."

Scientists are split over whether it's even possible to recognize terrorists simply by behavior detection. A 2008 report found no evidence it works.

"TSA is doing a number of things in the area of behavior detection and I personally think that some of them are shams," said Stephen Fienberg, a professor at Carnegie Mellon University.

I have no experience with this puff smoke things mentioned before but from the methods that seem to be working abroad and in Israel we would not embrace due to cost and privacy issues. So until we come to that realization we will continue to have "security theater"

More on the Explosive Trace Detection portal here:


A Viable Alternative to Whole Body Imaging (WBI)

The Guardian ETP uses a harmless air shower to collect minute particles from the human body and clothing and then analyzes them for the presence of a wide range of explosives. This is a fast, accurate and non-invasive approach to the screening of airline passengers for the presence of concealed explosive devices. Unlike body scanners, the Guardian ETP does not invade the personal privacy of the traveling public and improves on older "puffer" style trace portals, which proved unsuitable for aiport use. It also inspects shoes for the presence of IED's, allowing passengers the convenience of leaving their shoes on during the screening process.

For further information on the scientific basis of the Guardian's technical approach, please see the National Academy of Sciences Report - "Opportunities to improve airport passenger screening with mass spectrometry"

 

[eliza61]

Actually, no.

TSA's Program to Spot Terrorists a $200M Sham?

<>

In fact, sources tell CBS News a Government Accountability Office investigation is raising serious questions about the program.

The GAO uncovered at least 16 individuals later accused of involvement in terrorist plots flew 23 different times through U.S. airports since 2004. Yet none were stopped by TSA behavior detection officers working at those airports.

"It's a disgrace," said aviation security analyst Charles Slepian. "Why didn't they stop them? If it worked, you would catch them."

Scientists are split over whether it's even possible to recognize terrorists simply by behavior detection. A 2008 report found no evidence it works.

"TSA is doing a number of things in the area of behavior detection and I personally think that some of them are shams," said Stephen Fienberg, a professor at Carnegie Mellon University.






More on the Explosive Trace Detection portal here:


A Viable Alternative to Whole Body Imaging (WBI)

The Guardian ETP uses a harmless air shower to collect minute particles from the human body and clothing and then analyzes them for the presence of a wide range of explosives. This is a fast, accurate and non-invasive approach to the screening of airline passengers for the presence of concealed explosive devices. Unlike body scanners, the Guardian ETP does not invade the personal privacy of the traveling public and improves on older "puffer" style trace portals, which proved unsuitable for aiport use. It also inspects shoes for the presence of IED's, allowing passengers the convenience of leaving their shoes on during the screening process.

For further information on the scientific basis of the Guardian's technical approach, please see the National Academy of Sciences Report - "Opportunities to improve airport passenger screening with mass spectrometry"

You can always count on the dis to scour the internet for the 1 example of a critic on why any proposal could not actually work. So let's see the GAO did a 6 month investigation and found it didn't work, of course using the same untrained workers. Yet, Israel, and Greece seemed to be able to do it very effectively and I believe but I haven't fact check this one. Israel hasnt had an terrorist episode in 30 years and considering they are smack dab in the middle of 3 nations that are bent on their destruction, I'm thinking they have some expertise at this sort of thing. I could be wrong though.

Sorry I'll take door number two.

Gotta catch my return flight guys. see you tomorrow.

E

 

[Friendly Frog]

Personally I am OK with almost anything, if it keeps me safer! I might not relish it, but you can bet I feel better when everyone else has been "puffed" and "scanned" to the max!

Sad part is I don't feel safe at all. Just too many ways to get stuff past. From cargo, to medical equipment, to baby food and airline employees themselves. I also know people who have accidentally forgotten and packed liquids and gels in their luggage and it went through no questions asked.

Also, lets face it, you don't have to take down a plane to take out an airport creating havoc and major financial loss. I think we have been lucky so far.

 

[disney david]

i told you this was not the right forum to complain this is what the tsa has on their site. Instead of complaining on here which will do nothing complain to the tsa.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-01-11-security-poll_N.htm

 

[CPT Tripss]

Thanks for the first hand account Eliza61.

I grab my stuff and by the time I turn back around 2 female agents are there to escort me a ways off. The agent ask me to put my stuff on a table to side. I do so.

I was surprised to read this, your experience differs from my experiences and the reports by purported TSA screeners on sites such as flyertalk. I have regularly been denied access to my carry-on until "cleared" by patdown and explosive trace swab. Only TSA screeners or persons who have been "cleared" are supposed to touch carry-ons that have been cleared. The rational for this is to prevent an uncleared person from depositing a "bad thing" into the carry-on.

Most TSA checkpoints have a glass enclosure where you have to wait for the pat down that keeps you separated from "cleared" people and materials (some wags refer to it as "the penalty box.") In this picture, you can see it to the left of the American flag,

here you can see it directly behind the WTMD and the TSA staffer.

It seems that TSA did not follow SOP in this regard.

Did they detain you while testing a swab used on the TSAer's gloves for traces of explosive?

 

[disney david]

Here an image of an example i really cant see his how do i say this dis freindly well you know what mybe it depends on the cloths you wear. I cant even see his face.


http://content.usatoday.com/_common/_scripts/big_picture.aspx?width=490&height=354&storyURL=/news/washington/2010-01-07-security-plan_N.htm&imageURL=http://i.usatoday.net/news/_photos/2010/01/07/airport-scannerx-large.jpg

 

[CPT Tripss]

Hey Eliza61 - just reread your post.

Which terminal in PHL? In your second post it sounds like you also opted out in ORD . . . same experience?

 

[18sprint]

I apologize for another post on this subject, however, after reading the "letter" from Arthur M.M. Krolman to Robert A. Iger President & C.E.O., I just couldn't keep quiet. This dude thinks that because he is a self-proclaimed founder and president of something, and maybe he is , he seems to think that a nicely written letter bears some kind of weight that we all should stop and pay attention. Regardless of my feelings or anyone else's regarding full body scanning, does this dude really think that DISNEY is behind what the TSA does? Really? OMG! Mr. Iger can stop this. Once he stops all the things we don't like at the airports, then you can write a letter demanding DISNEY lower gas prices too. Oh yea, how about DISNEY stop the practice of sending our American jobs overseas? A Disney ran airline so we can forgo security? Yea....that'll work...terrorists would never touch a DISNEY airliner...nope...nada...no way. Don't like security at the airport, don't like full body scans or pat-downs? Drive. Flying is not an entitlement or right.

 

[goofy4tink]

TSA really needs to provide seats close to the WTMDs so people can sit, remove shoes, walk through detector, sit and put shoes on again if they are going to continue the removal requirement.

This comment is in no way an endorsement of the existing requirement. It's just plain common sense for older people, people with disabilities, and people who can not easily remove shoes and require shoes that give more support than slip ons.

I guess they weren't skiers. Did the line have signage?

All security areas I've used have had the signage. And that's my issue. It would seem that everyone thinks they are an experienced traveler. And they sure as heck or not. I know that one time when I was traveling with just my dd, someone a few people behind us made a comment about my dd being in that 'black diamond' line. Something about now the line was going to slow down with a kid in it. She was probably 12 at the time. Well people, that kid had her shoes off, her jacket off and her bag and everything else in those bins faster than anyone else around her. She strolled through the metal detector and grabbed her stuff, found a seat and slipped on her shoes. Now...who do you think held up the line??? Yup, Mr Bigmouth behind us. He left stuff in his pockets.

Actually, no.

TSA's Program to Spot Terrorists a $200M Sham?

<>

In fact, sources tell CBS News a Government Accountability Office investigation is raising serious questions about the program.

The GAO uncovered at least 16 individuals later accused of involvement in terrorist plots flew 23 different times through U.S. airports since 2004. Yet none were stopped by TSA behavior detection officers working at those airports.

"It's a disgrace," said aviation security analyst Charles Slepian. "Why didn't they stop them? If it worked, you would catch them."

Scientists are split over whether it's even possible to recognize terrorists simply by behavior detection. A 2008 report found no evidence it works.

"TSA is doing a number of things in the area of behavior detection and I personally think that some of them are shams," said Stephen Fienberg, a professor at Carnegie Mellon University.






More on the Explosive Trace Detection portal here:


A Viable Alternative to Whole Body Imaging (WBI)

The Guardian ETP uses a harmless air shower to collect minute particles from the human body and clothing and then analyzes them for the presence of a wide range of explosives. This is a fast, accurate and non-invasive approach to the screening of airline passengers for the presence of concealed explosive devices. Unlike body scanners, the Guardian ETP does not invade the personal privacy of the traveling public and improves on older "puffer" style trace portals, which proved unsuitable for aiport use. It also inspects shoes for the presence of IED's, allowing passengers the convenience of leaving their shoes on during the screening process.

For further information on the scientific basis of the Guardian's technical approach, please see the National Academy of Sciences Report - "Opportunities to improve airport passenger screening with mass spectrometry"

Nothing anyone says is going to make any difference to you. You are rock solid in your beliefs. And that's fine. But you do need to understand that just about anyone can find something to show they are right. There is always going to be evidence out there that will allow just about any argument to be made for any viewpoint.