Clarification on David's rental situation

[starry_solo]

I have rented points through David’s for October. I really expect it will be cancelled either by Disney or by me (second wave; travel quarantine requirements upon return to TN; etc) and I don’t imagine I’ll get any money back. Oh well.

Cancelled by Disney, you can attempt a credit card chargeback. Cancelled by you, you can see if travel insurance through your credit card company would cover it (unlikely).

 

[MIDisFan]

I was responding to the following quote. I didn't say anything about risk assessment moving forward. The poster was suggesting that the company in question wants owners to "put the contract aside and work from their hearts", and I'm suggesting that the company may actually be the one following the contract, based on interpretation.

And as a renter, there probably is more security going through a broker than "some guy/gal on the internet".

My question about the risk was directed towards the view that Brokers will offer more security which you spoke of earlier. I have no legal background, but know the reality of collecting on a judgement is different than obtaining one. Also, since adding a "middle man" complicates the process of obtaining a judgement, I don't see using a Broker as an advantage to mitigate the risk of the renter or owner holding the bag at the end of the day.

 

[Sandisw]

My question about the risk was directed towards the view that Brokers will offer more security which you spoke of earlier. I have no legal background, but know the reality of collecting on a judgement is different than obtaining one. Also, since adding a "middle man" complicates the process of obtaining a judgement, I don't see using a Broker as an advantage to mitigate the risk of the renter or owner holding the bag at the end of the day.

IMO, the only level of security a broker offered was that if the owner defaulted, the broker had said they would be there to get the renter another room, or money back,

However, in this situation, it seems the broker is standing in the way of an owner and renter work things out for a reschedule if both parties are willing.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

IMO, the only level of security a broker offered was that if the owner defaulted, the broker had said they would be there to get the renter another room, or money back,

However, in this situation, it seems the broker is standing in the way of an owner and renter work things out for a reschedule if both parties are willing.

In general I agree with this. But IMO, I'd much rather take the risk that my rental won't line up with the next global pandemic that forces the whole world to shutdown (I'm talking more long term. I wouldn't suggest anyone rent from either source in the short term) vs giving my money some random on the internet with a cool user name who can easily default with DVC, cancel the reservation last minute, or simply take my money and run. But that is just my personal risk assessment.

 

[disneykins]

Apologies; I have not kept up with the 3,000 post thread regarding David's DVC rentals. I've skimmed it a little, and also picked up pieces from other threads. I'm concerned about comments questioning the current state of David's and its ability to continue as a going concern.

I am a DVC owner that rented my points out through David's for a stay this September (most of the points were banked forward already and expire Sept. 30). The contract was finalized last November, and I received the initial 70%.

Is there any concern that David's will not follow through and pay me the remaining 30% in September? Whether WDW is open or not, the way the "old" contracts are written guarantees the owner these funds, correct?

Aside from that, if the renter is not comfortable going, I'd like to try to help. Should I contact David's to see if the renter has asked about the new voucher program? Or is that only applicable to reservations for dates the resorts are definitely closed for now?

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself with these questions, but the more I've poked around the more concerned I am getting. If the renter has asked for a CC charge back and/or a voucher from David's, then I may want to consider other ways to use these points before it is too late.

I have been following the other thread since the start but its getting a little repetitive so I thought I'd check this one out, lol.
I'm in a similar situation to OP, I am an owner and my rental is in October. I'm not too worried about it yet. David's is still in business (I know he might not be for long but the other thread has been saying that since it started). I have my 70% so that's something.

If the resorts are still closed in October, I wont be able to do anything with my points, so I'll keep the 70% and take the 30% loss. I'll try to work with David and his voucher if I can.

If the resorts are open, I'm confident David will pay me my 30%.

If I just cancel the reservation now, I'm out the 70% and I'm not able to use the points at a closed resort. Sorry for the renter but they took the risk of booking a resort when it was already closed (my booking was made in April).

 

[Sandisw]

In general I agree with this. But IMO, I'd much rather take the risk that my rental won't line up with the next global pandemic that forces the whole world to shutdown (I'm talking more long term. I wouldn't suggest anyone rent from either source in the short term) vs giving my money some random on the internet with a cool user name who can easily default with DVC, cancel the reservation last minute, or simply take my money and run. But that is just my personal risk assessment.

Yup...and that’s always been the advice....but I think going forward private rentals will change to include more favorable cancelations given what we are going through.

I agree in the short term, rental market privately could be risky, unless owners have decided to already offer those types of changes...which, if you see the rent/trade thread here, it is happening.

 

[stfxkid]

I don't understand how he David doesn't have any cash on hand to weather an emergency like this. He has been taking $3.5 to $4.5 on each point, and i can't believe his overhead can be very high at all. Additionally he is a registered in Ontario as travel agency and is required to follow very strict TICO (Travel Industry Council of Ontario) guidelines regarding Trust Accounting, Security Deposits, Error and Omissions insurance.

I would assume that it is more than likely that complaints have been filed with TICO and he will lose his ability to function as a travel agency in Ontario (may be able to continue as a points brokerage but not booking cruises non-dvc rooms and ABD). He may need to physically move to a more lax jurisdiction and re-incorporate.

 

[MIDisFan]

In general I agree with this. But IMO, I'd much rather take the risk that my rental won't line up with the next global pandemic that forces the whole world to shutdown (I'm talking more long term. I wouldn't suggest anyone rent from either source in the short term) vs giving my money some random on the internet with a cool user name who can easily default with DVC, cancel the reservation last minute, or simply take my money and run. But that is just my personal risk assessment.

All of which can occur with an owner you're assigned to through a broker. True, the broker would provide a voucher but at this point we've yet to see how those would pan out. Just saying, the security you feel from using a broker is still a false sense. Just my opinion, I don't plan to use a broker in the future at all. I don't see any upside for an owner and the broker premium doesn't seem of value to me if I ever needed to rent.

 

[stfxkid]

The whole point of using a brokerage is to mitigate risk, and he was paid a high premium for this. He has attempted to shirk all responsibility as a broker.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

I don't understand how he David doesn't have any cash on hand to weather an emergency like this. He has been taking $3.5 to $4.5 on each point, and i can't believe his overhead can be very high at all.

 

[stfxkid]

View attachment 494832

 

[CanadaDisney05]

All of which can occur with an owner you're assigned to through a broker. True, the broker would provide a voucher but at this point we've yet to see how those would pan out. Just saying, the security you feel from using a broker is still a false sense. Just my opinion, I don't plan to use a broker in the future at all. I don't see any upside for an owner and the broker premium doesn't seem of value to me if I ever needed to rent.

Have we? I'll admit I haven't followed the brokerage business for the past 5 to 10 years, but is it common for people to lose all of their money when an owner cancels (I'm talking about prior to the current Covid situation)?

 

[MIDisFan]

Have we? I'll admit I haven't followed the brokerage business for the past 5 to 10 years, but is it common for people to lose all of their money when an owner cancels (I'm talking about prior to the current Covid situation)?

Have any vouchers been redeemed yet? There have been very few private rentals gone bad over the years relatively speaking, from what I've read through various forums. Whenever one does, it generally turns into a significant thread. Yet we still haven't heard from any renters with private transactions on this board, nor any I frequent. So your willing to give brokers the benefit of the doubt but not willing to extend that to owners? Continually assuming that many, many private renters have been left without refunds or reservations.

 

[James Rhoades]

I actually rented my points through David for 2 separate trips one was a week or two before the closure. The family backed out about a week before check-in. I kept the 70% since Disney was still open and the family could have gone. David did not provide the remaining 30%... The 2nd rental would have occurred during the official Disney closure. For the second case, David asked for the 70% back... even with the contract. I provided the 70% back because I was able to get the DVC to allow me to apply those point to an August trip of mine. So I didnt lose any points on the 2nd contract.

I eventually called DVC over the first cancellation and they retroactively allowed me to use the points from the 1st cancellation also towards my August trip.

 

[Dracula]

I actually rented my points through David for 2 separate trips one was a week or two before the closure. The family backed out about a week before check-in. I kept the 70% since Disney was still open and the family could have gone. David did not provide the remaining 30%... The 2nd rental would have occurred during the official Disney closure. For the second case, David asked for the 70% back... even with the contract. I provided the 70% back because I was able to get the DVC to allow me to apply those point to an August trip of mine. So I didnt lose any points on the 2nd contract.

I eventually called DVC over the first cancellation and they retroactively allowed me to use the points from the 1st cancellation also towards my August trip.

How did David justify not paying the 30% for the first reservation, which was scheduled before the resorts closure?

 

[ford91exploder]

Where travel insurance is not paying out is because is most insurance contracts have what is known as a 'Force Majeure' clause. Which is a 'get out of jail free' card for the insurer in the event that the insurer is asked to cover unforeseeable circumstances caused by governmental action that prevent someone from fulfilling a contract.

So Travel insurance would cover a rental failure if Disney itself decided to close a resort.

But in this case Disney closed it's resorts due to government action i.e. 'Force Majeure' to prevent the spread of a pandemic. So the insurer is off the hook so to speak.

Insurrection, disease outbreaks, riots, nuclear accidents , war and government actions are all considered force majeure events and inability to fufull a contract even if insured against it if one of these conditions exist allow the insurance company to deny payment now most force majeure clauses also call for repayment of premium to the policyholder as the contract is null and void.

It sucks but there it is, David's probably carried insurance against rental failures which was probably voided for the same reason yes David is in Canada but force majeure is long established in British law and legal systems which are derived from it Canada/US/Commonwealth nations etc.

 

[Sandisw]

I actually rented my points through David for 2 separate trips one was a week or two before the closure. The family backed out about a week before check-in. I kept the 70% since Disney was still open and the family could have gone. David did not provide the remaining 30%... The 2nd rental would have occurred during the official Disney closure. For the second case, David asked for the 70% back... even with the contract. I provided the 70% back because I was able to get the DVC to allow me to apply those point to an August trip of mine. So I didnt lose any points on the 2nd contract.

I eventually called DVC over the first cancellation and they retroactively allowed me to use the points from the 1st cancellation also towards my August trip.

Thanks for sharing, Your example of him not paying the additional 30% when it was the renter who backed out is why I have lost faith in his practices, and IMO, shows his decision on how to handle this is only in his interests

There is absolutely no reason you were not given the extra 30%.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

There is absolutely no reason you were not given the extra 30%.

I can think of ONE reason...

 

[James Rhoades]

How did David justify not paying the 30% for the first reservation, which was scheduled before the resorts closure?

He never replied to my email...

 

[cvjw]

How did David justify not paying the 30% for the first reservation, which was scheduled before the resorts closure?

I had a renter checking in before the resorts closed, but after the parks closed. On the day of checkin, I never received the remaining 30%. I finally called later in the afternoon to see what the holdup was. I was told that they were too busy with the current situation to pay me my money. They said maybe they could pay me later in the week. After I told them to check their records and see how many of my points they had rented over the years, they relented and sent the money. I’m sure the decision was made that they did not want to lose me as a customer - too late though, that ship has sailed.

I would have no confidence that David’s would pay anyone their remaining money. And what could you do about it realistically? I‘m not flying to Canada to take him to small claims court over less than $1000.