Clarification on David's rental situation

[MIDisFan]

I totally agree, but have just been thinking about how the rental market looks moving forward. I would definitely never rent from a broker again, but I just can't see how renting privately is really a whole lot better. I get there is faster, more direct communication, but again I would imagine there have to be situations where rebooking is not possible. In this particular type of rental agreement (points having an expiration date etc), the owners' and renters' interest don't always align and so strictly from a renter's perspective David's doesn't seem to be any riskier than a private owner. Obviously there are a lot of factors working against David even being able to continue to do business, but my observations are that to the casual renter (not one that does a lot of research or reads threads like this), the new contracts look better for them and apparently he charges less per point than private renters. I truly thought that the rewrite would just add a clause about no refunds for resort closures, but apparently he is promising vouchers for future closures too! I understand these vouchers may be useless, but most people don't. As we speak there are conversations happening on Facebook Disney groups and people are still singing David's (and other brokers') praises. Now they even add the voucher as a "plus"! To most renters the ease of matchmaking, possible lower prices, and illusion of security seem better on the surface. Only those that have been paying attention understand the problems with their middleman model. I'll just be interested to see if renting points stays as popular Good luck with your situation!

I would say the risk is the same for the renter, but increases for owners now that brokers want to hold owners accountable for force majeure clauses . Private rentals will really come down to the terms agreed upon to determine the risk vs reward.

 

[MIDisFan]

And as a renter, there probably is more security going through a broker than "some guy/gal on the internet". This isn't a usual situation. This is a world defining moment in history. The odds of something of this magnitude (once we are fully past this) happening again during your particular future reservation is pretty remote. Odds of "some guy/gal on the internet" taking your money and running are probably a lot higher in comparison (even if you do your due diligence).

Even in this situation, it all depends on the owner you rented from privately. If your owner refunded you or rescheduled you, great. But I'm sure there are many, many renters out there who are not getting a dime back from the owners or won't be able to get there trips rescheduled. They are actually in a worst position than dealing with Davids. Atleast with Davids you have choices such as chargeback or voucher. Say what you want about the value of the voucher and the going concern of the company, I'd much rather have the voucher in hand than having rented from a private owner who flat out refused to work with me.

I just find it odd that we really haven't heard many complaints about private transactions with several of the larger Disney message boards hosting large rental forums.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

I just find it odd that we really haven't heard many complaints about private transactions with several of the larger Disney message boards hosting large rental forums.

I'm just shooting off the cuff here, but I'd probably imagine that the gross volume of private rentals (I'm not including renting to a friend or family member) is much less than through a broker. Most average renters aren't going on to message boards and sending thousands of dollars to some stranger through pay pal. I know I would be very hesitant. So even if the rate of renters losing everything with private rentals is higher than with a broker, the gross number may be substantially less. When your looking for those complaints on the forums, the gross number is what sticks out.

 

[Marionnette]

I asked something similar in the other thread, but from a renter's perspective. It sounds like a lot of owners are saying they'll rent their own points now, but unless I am missing something that doesn't really solve the problem at hand. Who should take the loss in the result of a resort closure? I see there are benefits to working directly with an owner that relate mostly to cutting out the middle man, but it definitely doesn't solve everything.

Assuming all other solutions have been exhausted, I have a feeling a lot of private rentals are also at a point where rebooking isn't possible and now they are at an impasse. It sounds like you (and some other owners) went above and beyond and refunded money completely. That is amazing of you all!

However, I guess what I am wondering is if people like you represent the majority of owners. Reading through the David's thread it seems like most owners who rented though him want their money plain and simple (not judging - just observing). Alternatively, I see private owners saying they refunded their renters' money outright. If I had to guess, owners who didn't refund anything are probably not admitting that as freely, but is the difference that owners who rented with David's feel like the middle man is pulling one over on them (which I see arguments for)? It just seems like owners feel David's owes them money, but owners with private rentaIs say they are refunding. I truly see all sides of this situation and everyone is justified to feel how they feel. Whichever side is made whole leaves the other side feeling shorted. But from a renter's perspective, unless you just happened to get a really nice owner, I would imagine you are in the same boat as with David's?

Owners who rented thru David’s have an agreement with David’s that they are to be paid the agreed upon amount as long as the owner did nothing to jeopardize the reservation. Those owners who feel that they don’t owe David’s a refund and also expect the remainder of their payment are doing so because they stuck to the agreement. David’s wants those owners to put the contract aside and “work from their hearts”. That’s asking a lot when the person doing the asking stands to lose zero in the deal while pretty much leaving the owner with damaged points (shorter period in which to use them, lack of availability before they expire, difficult rental market).

Now, imagine an owner who rented privately. They have the ability to contact their renter directly. They were able to cancel/re-book their renter while availability still existed. They didn’t have to wait for DVC to cancel the reservation.

Case in point: My “renter” is my niece and her husband. They were supposed to leave for their Disney honeymoon next week. I contacted her last month and told her it didn’t look good for May. I was able to reschedule her for dates in November that she requested. Had she gone thru David’s instead of her generous aunt, she would still be waiting for DVC to cancel her reservation so that David’s can issue a voucher of dubious value. And there’s nothing left for the week she wanted to go in November. I’m losing 2 banked points that could not be banked forward again. Had I waited until DVC canceled the reservation, I would have lost a lot more points because I would have missed my banking deadline for the current UY’s points. I would have done the same for any renter. It worked out to my benefit and my niece’s.

If you read upthread, there are renters who have stays booked thru David’s that are concurrent with my niece’s original reservation. Guess who is in a better place because they rented privately and could communicate directly with the owner?

 

[CanadaDisney05]

Owners who rented thru David’s have an agreement with David’s that they are to be paid the agreed upon amount as long as the owner did nothing to jeopardize the reservation. Those owners who feel that they don’t owe David’s a refund and also expect the remainder of their payment are doing so because they stuck to the agreement. David’s wants those owners to put the contract aside and “work from their hearts”. That’s asking a lot when the person doing the asking stands to lose zero in the deal while pretty much leaving the owner with damaged points (shorter period in which to use them, lack of availability before they expire, difficult rental market).

Now, imagine an owner who rented privately. They have the ability to contact their renter directly. They were able to cancel/re-book their renter while availability still existed. They didn’t have to wait for DVC to cancel the reservation.

Case in point: My “renter” is my niece and her husband. They were supposed to leave for their Disney honeymoon next week. I contacted her last month and told her it didn’t look good for May. I was able to reschedule her for dates in November that she requested. Had she gone thru David’s instead of her generous aunt, she would still be waiting for DVC to cancel her reservation so that David’s can issue a voucher of dubious value. And there’s nothing left for the week she wanted to go in November. I’m losing 2 banked points that could not be banked forward again. Had I waited until DVC canceled the reservation, I would have lost a lot more points because I would have missed my banking deadline for the current UY’s points. I would have done the same for any renter. It worked out to my benefit and my niece’s.

If you read upthread, there are renters who have stays booked thru David’s that are concurrent with my niece’s original reservation. Guess who is in a better place because they rented privately and could communicate directly with the owner?

This was an arms length transaction which is very different than renting off some person you communicated with on a message board. I'm not suggesting that all or even most owners wouldn't try and help, but I think the example is apples and oranges.

Those owners who feel that they don’t owe David’s a refund and also expect the remainder of their payment are doing so because they stuck to the agreement. David’s wants those owners to put the contract aside and “work from their hearts”.

There seems to be quite bit of disagreement here about the interpretation of the contract. Going through the other thread, there is a group of people (myself included), who believe the owner's may actually have a legal obligation to refund the money.

 

[fancymouse]

Owners who rented thru David’s have an agreement with David’s that they are to be paid the agreed upon amount as long as the owner did nothing to jeopardize the reservation. Those owners who feel that they don’t owe David’s a refund and also expect the remainder of their payment are doing so because they stuck to the agreement. David’s wants those owners to put the contract aside and “work from their hearts”. That’s asking a lot when the person doing the asking stands to lose zero in the deal while pretty much leaving the owner with damaged points (shorter period in which to use them, lack of availability before they expire, difficult rental market).

Now, imagine an owner who rented privately. They have the ability to contact their renter directly. They were able to cancel/re-book their renter while availability still existed. They didn’t have to wait for DVC to cancel the reservation.

Case in point: My “renter” is my niece and her husband. They were supposed to leave for their Disney honeymoon next week. I contacted her last month and told her it didn’t look good for May. I was able to reschedule her for dates in November that she requested. Had she gone thru David’s instead of her generous aunt, she would still be waiting for DVC to cancel her reservation so that David’s can issue a voucher of dubious value. And there’s nothing left for the week she wanted to go in November. I’m losing 2 banked points that could not be banked forward again. Had I waited until DVC canceled the reservation, I would have lost a lot more points because I would have missed my banking deadline for the current UY’s points. I would have done the same for any renter. It worked out to my benefit and my niece’s.

If you read upthread, there are renters who have stays booked thru David’s that are concurrent with my niece’s original reservation. Guess who is in a better place because they rented privately and could communicate directly with the owner?

I was just trying to make sense from a consumer's side as to if renting privately afford any more benefits. I see direct communication can be better, but that doesn't necessarily change the outcomes for the ones with no solution to be had (meaning points expired, no availability etc). David's could 100% fold and people left with nothing, but they could be left with nothing from a private rental as well. If by some miracle, David's is able to make good on all the vouchers there is actually a lot more flexibility to the 2 year usage and some people might appreciate that. I was a teacher a know if I was in a situation where I had to reschedule it would not have been as easy for me to pick new dates as I would be bound by the school calendar. Anyway, to me the risk seems the same and renting privately has other risks that (under normal circumstances) David's does not. It's all about tradeoffs I guess and how much people are willing to risk for savings. I hope your niece get to go in November! We also have a November reservation

 

[Madame]

As an owner in a private rental transaction I would not rent out points that were not salvageable (from what I’ve read on FB this is how many owners rent privately now - they rent points which are bankable) and the renter would be told the life of the points.

David’s system values ALL points the same - banked, borrowed, set to expire day after checkin - and it’s a crapshoot for the renter who has NO clue about point status & therefore cannot make an informed decision about whether it is wise to rent those points or get insurance.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

As an owner in a private rental transaction I would not rent out points that were not salvageable (from what I’ve read on FB this is how many owners rent privately now - they rent points which are bankable) and the renter would be told the life of the points.

David’s system values ALL points the same - banked, borrowed, set to expire day after checkin - and it’s a crapshoot for the renter who has NO clue about point status & therefore cannot make an informed decision about whether it is wise to rent those points or get insurance.

I'm just curious why you would you be renting out points that have extended life regularly? I can come up with a few reasons such as knowing that your not going to be travelling to WDW in the following year, or requiring cash urgently, or renting as an investment. In general, I personally would only be renting in the situation where I know I'm not going to be using the points, and likely wouldn't be making that decision until much closer to expiration (12 months?)

 

[MIDisFan]

This was an arms length transaction which is very different than renting off some person you communicated with on a message board. I'm not suggesting that all or even most owners wouldn't try and help, but I think the example is apples and oranges.



There seems to be quite bit of disagreement here about the interpretation of the contract. Going through the other thread, there is a group of people (myself included), who believe the owner's may actually have a legal obligation to refund the money.

That's a pretty small group, but let's just say it's the correct legal position, how difficult will that be for David's to gain a judgement against each owner? Is it even David who would seek one or would it be the renter vs the owner? So moving forward, if this happens again, even with a force majeure clause, are renters going to be protected any better if a judgement against owners will be difficult to obtain? Wouldn't it be a little easier if a broker wasn't involved?

 

[eMoneyBug]

I totally agree, but have just been thinking about how the rental market looks moving forward. I would definitely never rent from a broker again, but I just can't see how renting privately is really a whole lot better. I get there is faster, more direct communication, but again I would imagine there have to be situations where rebooking is not possible. In this particular type of rental agreement (points having an expiration date etc), the owners' and renters' interest don't always align and so strictly from a renter's perspective David's doesn't seem to be any riskier than a private owner. Obviously there are a lot of factors working against David even being able to continue to do business, but my observations are that to the casual renter (not one that does a lot of research or reads threads like this), the new contracts look better for them and apparently he charges less per point than private renters. I truly thought that the rewrite would just add a clause about no refunds for resort closures, but apparently he is promising vouchers for future closures too! I understand these vouchers may be useless, but most people don't. As we speak there are conversations happening on Facebook Disney groups and people are still singing David's (and other brokers') praises. Now they even add the voucher as a "plus"! To most renters the ease of matchmaking, possible lower prices, and illusion of security seem better on the surface. Only those that have been paying attention understand the problems with their middleman model. I'll just be interested to see if renting points stays as popular Good luck with your situation!

Moving forward, Owners should disclose / Renters should demand to know that "status" of the points they are using. Use Year/Bank Deadline or are they using banked points that have a deadline of what date? As an owner, I will look for renters that have their desired dates prior to my banking date. If I am using banked points, as early in the 12month period as possible to allow for potential re-booking. Renters should ask the question of any potential owner they work with a few of the "What if" scenarios and pay $ accordingly demanding on the amount of risk they are willing to take on.

 

[cm8]

I asked something similar in the other thread, but from a renter's perspective. It sounds like a lot of owners are saying they'll rent their own points now, but unless I am missing something that doesn't really solve the problem at hand. Who should take the loss in the result of a resort closure? I see there are benefits to working directly with an owner that relate mostly to cutting out the middle man, but it definitely doesn't solve everything.

Assuming all other solutions have been exhausted, I have a feeling a lot of private rentals are also at a point where rebooking isn't possible and now they are at an impasse. It sounds like you (and some other owners) went above and beyond and refunded money completely. That is amazing of you all!

However, I guess what I am wondering is if people like you represent the majority of owners. Reading through the David's thread it seems like most owners who rented though him want their money plain and simple (not judging - just observing). Alternatively, I see private owners saying they refunded their renters' money outright. If I had to guess, owners who didn't refund anything are probably not admitting that as freely, but is the difference that owners who rented with David's feel like the middle man is pulling one over on them (which I see arguments for)? It just seems like owners feel David's owes them money, but owners with private rentaIs say they are refunding. I truly see all sides of this situation and everyone is justified to feel how they feel. Whichever side is made whole leaves the other side feeling shorted. But from a renter's perspective, unless you just happened to get a really nice owner, I would imagine you are in the same boat as with David's?
[/QUOTE/]


As an Owner who rents, It would be in my best interest to make sure my Renter was taken care of. Most of us understand that without Renters, we wouldn’t be able to rent! I’m willing to do whatever necessary and agreed to within my power to make sure my Renter receives the accommodations they have trusted me to provide for them.

This is exactly why we use a contract. The terms are listed and agreed upon by both sides. I have no intentions on ever leaving my Renters to hold the bag so to speak. ***extenuating circumstances *** have always been included as a clause in my contract. I’ll never take advantage of my Renter even if it said I could based on the language of my contract. It takes a big leap of trust and faith that you won’t get your $$$$$ stolen by a stranger.

Communication is a must from both sides at all times. I offer updates to my Guest(Renters). I refunded one who had a stay in April because it was the right thing to do. Contract be dam_ed, You don’t take advantage of anyone just because you can. I have 1 pending for June that may or may not be canceled (ugh) and I will do the same as I did with April’s. Do I have to? No. Should I? Yes, because I’m going to need them in the future (as a Renter) if we want to keep the rental market open and successful.

Do all owners have to make the same choice? No, they are free to do what the like within the parameters of their own contract. I’m sure you will find that most of us don’t mind moving mountains to assist our Guest( Renters).

Not all Owners are able to make refunds, so they may offer to reschedule the Renter instead. Do I consider that fair? Absolutely, especially if it fits within the parameters of the contract they signed and agreed to.

We’re (most) not over here like scrooge mc duck counting dollar bills smiling and giving ourselves high fives because we get to keep “free money”.

We (most) are willing to go above and beyond to provide the accommodations we promised. The Renter has a responsibility to make sure that they hold up their end of the contract as well.
You can’t agree to the terms then try to change them because you don’t like how things have turned out.

If the resort is open and the Renter chooses not to go, it’s a decision they will need to live with. I only promised accommodations in form of a (DVC) room. I didn’t promise the parks, restaurants or that the world would be free of any calamity. I held up my end of the contract now it’s up to them to do so on their end.


My apologies in advance for the lengthy response

 

[McCrae]

Moving forward, Owners should disclose / Renters should demand to know that "status" of the points they are using. Use Year/Bank Deadline or are they using banked points that have a deadline of what date? As an owner, I will look for renters that have their desired dates prior to my banking date. If I am using banked points, as early in the 12month period as possible to allow for potential re-booking. Renters should ask the question of any potential owner they work with a few of the "What if" scenarios and pay $ accordingly demanding on the amount of risk they are willing to take on.

This makes things too complicated. All that is required is more clarity regarding when a refund will or won’t be given.

 

[CanadaDisney05]

That's a pretty small group,

It's a lot of the same people saying the same things over and over (myself included). It's hard to gauge quantity. It's also primarily renters who believe that the owners and broker are responsible, and owners who believe renters broker are responsible. There is clearly bias in the opinions.

but let's just say it's the correct legal position, how difficult will that be for David's to gain a judgement against each owner?

Probably not that easy.

Is it even David who would seek one or would it be the renter vs the owner?

My guess would be that the renter could sue David, and David could sue the owner. That is just my opinion.

So moving forward, if this happens again, even with a force majeure clause, are renters going to be protected any better if a judgement against owners will be difficult to obtain? Wouldn't it be a little easier if a broker wasn't involved?

I was responding to the following quote. I didn't say anything about risk assessment moving forward. The poster was suggesting that the company in question wants owners to "put the contract aside and work from their hearts", and I'm suggesting that the company may actually be the one following the contract, based on interpretation.

Those owners who feel that they don’t owe David’s a refund and also expect the remainder of their payment are doing so because they stuck to the agreement. David’s wants those owners to put the contract aside and “work from their hearts”.

 

[Madame]

I'm just curious why you would you be renting out points that have extended life regularly? I can come up with a few reasons such as knowing that your not going to be travelling to WDW in the following year, or requiring cash urgently, or renting as an investment. In general, I personally would only be renting in the situation where I know I'm not going to be using the points, and likely wouldn't be making that decision until much closer to expiration (12 months?)

For cash to vacation elsewhere. I’ve rented 5 times. Always current or borrowed points. We never bank points because there are none left. Never because we had to because they were expiring

 

[Marionnette]

I was just trying to make sense from a consumer's side as to if renting privately afford any more benefits. I see direct communication can be better, but that doesn't necessarily change the outcomes for the ones with no solution to be had (meaning points expired, no availability etc). David's could 100% fold and people left with nothing, but they could be left with nothing from a private rental as well. If by some miracle, David's is able to make good on all the vouchers there is actually a lot more flexibility to the 2 year usage and some people might appreciate that. I was a teacher a know if I was in a situation where I had to reschedule it would not have been as easy for me to pick new dates as I would be bound by the school calendar. Anyway, to me the risk seems the same and renting privately has other risks that (under normal circumstances) David's does not. It's all about tradeoffs I guess and how much people are willing to risk for savings. I hope your niece get to go in November! We also have a November reservation

I think the real question should be if renting privately is going to provide fewer benefits compared to dealing with a broker.

One of the chief benefits of a private rental has always been that there is no “waiting in line” for an owner with points at your preferred resort. You know where your owner has their contract when you enter into a dialogue with them. If you thought getting a rental at 11 months thru a broker was tough before, it’s going to be brutal now that more owners are deciding that they don’t want to make brokers rich off of their points.

Another advantage is that private owners have also been willing (for the most part) to check availability without taking a deposit. I only know of one who takes deposits to just check. And some will even allow renters to do a payment plan, as opposed to paying in full at the time that the reservation is secured. While most owners have no-refund policies, they tend to be more flexible about rescheduling renters for whom life throws a curveball (within the limits of DVC availability and the ability to move their points around). They also tend to add more flexible force majeure clauses that give partial cash refunds when rescheduling is not an option. I’ve seen postings by one owner who uses an escrow service for their renters to add a layer of confidence that their reservation will be safe.

From a consumer’s perspective, I don’t see how having your money tied up with David’s for what could be potentially up to 3 year’s time (11 months from date reservation is made + two additional years for voucher use) is a good thing. Couple that with a very strict no-refunds/no changes policy and I don’t understand why anyone would rent thru them in the future when better options exist.

 

[eMoneyBug]

I think the real question should be if renting privately is going to provide fewer benefits compared to dealing with a broker.

One of the chief benefits of a private rental has always been that there is no “waiting in line” for an owner with points at your preferred resort. You know where your owner has their contract when you enter into a dialogue with them. If you thought getting a rental at 11 months thru a broker was tough before, it’s going to be brutal now that more owners are deciding that they don’t want to make brokers rich off of their points.

Another advantage is that private owners have also been willing (for the most part) to check availability without taking a deposit. I only know of one who takes deposits to just check. And some will even allow renters to do a payment plan, as opposed to paying in full at the time that the reservation is secured. While most owners have no-refund policies, they tend to be more flexible about rescheduling renters for whom life throws a curveball (within the limits of DVC availability and the ability to move their points around). They also tend to add more flexible force majeure clauses that give partial cash refunds when rescheduling is not an option. I’ve seen postings by one owner who uses an escrow service for their renters to add a layer of confidence that their reservation will be safe.

From a consumer’s perspective, I don’t see how having your money tied up with David’s for what could be potentially up to 3 year’s time (11 months from date reservation is made + two additional years for voucher use) is a good thing. Couple that with a very strict no-refunds/no changes policy and I don’t understand why anyone would rent thru them in the future when better options exist.

ohhhhh, escrow service. do you have more details? like how much do they charge? That seems like a great idea to offer that in private rentals, they would act as the broker fee, which is currently like $3-5 spread per point, plus going through a broker they do the tax form, while private is well "amongst friends"

 

[SwirlTheCitrus]

As a first time renter whose May reservation (that was already rescheduled from March) is about to be canceled, as the points that I am renting expire June 1st, what should I be doing?

I really appreciate your guys's expertise in this; it's a lot to try and process for something that I don't understand extraordinarily well.

file a credit card chargeback. Was your reservation rescheduled with the new contract?

Yes-- but I did not agree to the voucher.

So, if I did modify my reservation with the help of the owner, and I do a credit card chargeback, is the owner going to lose all of her money?

 

[Marionnette]

So, if I did modify my reservation with the help of the owner, and I do a credit card chargeback, is the owner going to lose all of her money?

Whomever you gave your CC number to for processing, that’s who will have to respond to the chargeback. If the CC company finds in your favor, the money will be deducted from that person’s merchant account. So, if this was a private rental then the owner loses everything that you paid them. If it was thru a broker, then the broker is the one left out in the cold.

 

[SwirlTheCitrus]

Whomever you gave your CC number to for processing, that’s who will have to respond to the chargeback. If the CC company finds in your favor, the money will be deducted from that person’s merchant account. So, if this was a private rental then the owner loses everything that you paid them. If it was thru a broker, then the broker is the one left out in the cold.

Thank you so much for clarifying!

 

[Ecomommy09]

I have rented points through David’s for October. I really expect it will be cancelled either by Disney or by me (second wave; travel quarantine requirements upon return to TN; etc) and I don’t imagine I’ll get any money back. Oh well.