Choosing National Parks

[RamblingMad]

Sure. Bryce Canyon is at 8-9000 ft elevation. I'd gone there straight from Zion (5-6000 at the canyon floor) and it was noticeably cooler and harder to breathe. We also went to Brian Head at about 10K ft elevation and that was hard. I think that's been the highest elevation I've ever been to. I've been to a few peaks that were just under 10K ft.

I've had a few people suggest that maybe I could try Mt Shasta. That's not necessarily a technical climb, but most doing it carry an ice axe.

I had no problems doing the loops at Bryce. It was definitely cooler. I run into problems in the high country in Yosemite. Nothing major. I just slow down. The Diamox gets me going faster sooner.

I actually prefer Bryce to Zion. Those two majors loops are great. And far less crowds.

 

[bcla]

Keeping in mind that we went over a decade ago, Yellowstone will definitely be MUCH cooler if that is a factor for you. When we were there - mid July 2006 it actually SNOWED. We had rented one of the cabins in the Roosevelt area for our stay. We laughed when we arrived because the cabin had a potbelly stove with little wood pellets all set up to go. Because - you know, July. Well, that stove got used, on more than one night.

Also, in Yellowstone, if you want to get into the backcountry and do something a little adventurous but not too adventurous, take the horseback riding trip with the all you can eat BBQ. Slightly less adventurous but still lots of fun, the conestoga wagon ride to the back country with the all you can eat BBQ. It leaves from Roosevelt Lodge and lasts the better part of an afternoon.

Also, if going to Yellowstone, I HIGHLY recommend staying in the park if you can. It is a long car ride between the different areas. I was shocked at how long it took to get from one area to the other. In part because of the windy roads and in part because of the traffic. Some people actually stay in multiple areas to make it easier on themselves.

I second or third, Custer State park. It's a full day (14 hrs) of driving from Yellowstone to Custer, but add in Devil's tower and Mt. Rushmore and you have a really full week.

Didn't go horseback, but did the wagon trip. Kind of disappointed it was on rubber tires, but I guess real wooden wheels would have been brutal.

We also stayed one night in Roosevelt. Our cabin smelled like smoke by morning. We also asked for more of the logs. We didn't have pellets, but rather complete pressed logs. Looks like now they use something that looks like disks.

 

[MrsPete]

We don't have a choice about when to go. With kids in school, we have to go over the summer. We went out West during the summer 10 years ago. It was hot...like Holy Hell, Hot...but we did fine.

You just never know about some of these places. We were last in Yellowstone in mid-July. We packed jeans but no jackets -- it was JULY. The temperature dipped into the 50s, and I was forced to buy $$$$$ sweatshirts for everyone.

They are, especially Yellowstone. Staying INSIDE the parks is key.

Staying inside the parks is great, but here are a couple hints:
- Do not underestimate the number of summer visitors (especially in Yellowstone). Traffic is heavy.
- Do not enter the park without a full tank of gas. Yes, they sell gas inside the park, but it's MUCH more expensive than outside the parks.
- You must be careful about food. Bears are extremely skilled at stealing food -- even if it means tearing the trunk off your car to reach it. It goes without saying that if you're in a tent, you'd be a complete idiot to have any food with you.
- Every portion of Yellowstone has a restaurant, cafeteria or lunch counter -- usually two. Prices are fairly high because of location.

Wherever you go, make sure you make your in park lodging reservations as soon as you can. If you wait, you might be too late.

So true, so true, so true. When we stayed at the North Rim of the Grand Canyon I called in the afternoon on THE DAY that the reservations "opened" -- I literally got the last cabin. (Admittedly, it was July 4, so "prime time".)

And be careful. A sad story I'd hate to hear one of you repeat: We checked in on July 3. As I waited in the long check-in line, a man ahead of me was LIVID and was very nasty to the clerk. Why? He made a reservation to check in on June 3 ... but presented himself for check-in on July 3. Not the clerk's fault that he's an idiot, but he was in a spot: the place was sold out, and the North Rim is close to absolutely nothing -- it's not like you could go a mile down the road and stay in another hotel. I don't know what became of him and his family.

Sequoia Is on my bucket list.

I've gotta see a redwood.

The pass not only gets the passholder in free -- it gets everyone in your vehicle in free. And not only to National Park System sites -- it gets you in to most federally managed lands.

It'll be more than a decade before I can qualify for the senior citizen's pass, but I LOVE the America the Beautiful Pass -- I hope that's still the name. It was a wonderful bargain for us.

Do note, though, that not every park charges the same /treats the park the same. MOST are just as you describe, but others differ; for example, Wind Tunnel and Jewel Cave (?) let anyone into their museum for free, but they charge for underground tours. Mt. Rushmore charges for parking but not entrance. When you pay to get into Yellowstone, you can also get into Grand Teton for the week (or vice versa). Some of the Washington DC parks are different too. The moral: do read ahead and know the details for the parks you're planning to visit.

Another small thing to consider -- in fact, it'd make a great Christmas stocking stuffer: the National Parks Passport. It's a small spiral-bound book, and at every park you can get a stamp (usually in the gift store).

In order to really see the north rim, you want to hike down. Give yourself a half day to do this trek. Go as far as the maps provided suggest. And bring plenty of water.

LOVE the North Rim. One of our best National Parks memories is sitting on the terrace of the Grand Canyon Lodge watching the sun go down eating pizza with my family. They had a fireplace big enough for me to walk into, and the roaring fire was welcome -- even on July 4. Waiters came around selling adult libations and hot chocolate.

 

[JimMIA]

Another small thing to consider -- in fact, it'd make a great Christmas stocking stuffer: the National Parks Passport. It's a small spiral-bound book, and at every park you can get a stamp (usually in the gift store).

I have to laugh at this because DW just spent a good bit of time this afternoon ordering a Passport for a friend!

There are now three versions of the Passport: a small one for $10, and bigger one for $25, and the BIG one for $60. You can get refill inserts for the BIG one.

There are also multiple stamp designs in many parks. In larger parks, each visitor center will have a separate, unique stamp for their locations. Many spots have not only the date stamp, but some sort of a graphic stamp as well.

And for the 90% of us who forget to bring our Passports on vacation with us -- -- they also have small squares of paper that you can stamp and glue in your book later.

 

[MrsPete]

I have to laugh at this because DW just spent a good bit of time this afternoon ordering a Passport for a friend!

There are now three versions of the Passport: a small one for $10, and bigger one for $25, and the BIG one for $60. You can get refill inserts for the BIG one.

There are also multiple stamp designs in many parks. In larger parks, each visitor center will have a separate, unique stamp for their locations. Many spots have not only the date stamp, but some sort of a graphic stamp as well.

And for the 90% of us who forget to bring our Passports on vacation with us -- -- they also have small squares of paper that you can stamp and glue in your book later.

Wow, they've stepped up that program! I'm quite sure I didn't have choices when I bought ours years ago -- but I did buy extra pages.

While we're on this subject, does anyone have the National Parks game? I'd like to get it for my husband for Christmas, but it's pretty expensive. https://www.amazon.com/Trekking-Nat...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

 

[JimMIA]

You just never know about some of these places. We were last in Yellowstone in mid-July. We packed jeans but no jackets -- it was JULY. The temperature dipped into the 50s, and I was forced to buy $$$$$ sweatshirts for everyone.

MANY years ago, we did a long road trip -- Miami to Glacier NP (and Waterton Lakes, the Canadian sister park), and LOTS of places in between. It was 5 weeks, 8,500 miles with a pop-up camper.

We visited Yellowstone in mid-June, and were at Mt. Rushmore on our way back to Miami. We talked to some other visitors who had just driven from Yellowstone. They got snowed on in Yellowstone on July 4th!

 

[bcla]

When you pay to get into Yellowstone, you can also get into Grand Teton for the week (or vice versa).

Not any more. They've had completely separate entrance fees for a few years.

https://www.nps.gov/yell/planyourvisit/fees.htm​

Visitors entering Yellowstone's South Entrance will be traveling through Grand Teton National Park first; separate entrance fees are charged.​

It's now $35 for each park for up to 7 days. If one is going to both, it makes more sense to spend $80 on the annual interagency pass.

There are some interesting cases. Sequoia and Kings Canyon effectively operate as one park. As such they have a single entrance fee. All the NPS in Hawaii offer a multi-park annual pass for $55. All the entrance fees have gone up while the interagency annual price has been $80 since I first got one in 2007. I highly recommend that pass.

 

[JimMIA]

It's now $35 for each park for up to 7 days. If one is going to both, it makes more sense to spend $80 on the annual interagency pass.

Right. All NPS entrance fees were drastically increased a few years ago -- I think in 2015-2016. Now most parks are at least $25, and just about all of the larger, more popular parks are $35.

That makes the "interagency pass" a no-brainer. And yes, it IS still called the "America The Beautiful" pass.

But there are notable exceptions.

For example, America's most popular national park is Great Smoky Mountains NP. The land for Great Smokys was donated to NPS by the states of North Carolina and Tennessee -- with the proviso that there would never be an entrance fee charged. 12.5 MILLION visitors in 2019...and not one penny of entrance fee collected!

 

[RamblingMad]

If you can get the senior pass, get it. I know lots of hikers who have it.

Basically, pick one park to visit a year. If you have time, go to more than one. They’re wonderful.

 

[bcla]

If you can get the senior pass, get it. I know lots of hikers who have it.

Basically, pick one park to visit a year. If you have time, go to more than one. They’re wonderful.

The price went up. It used to be $10 for a lifetime pass. Now it's kind of complicated, but in general it's $80 one way or another. I believe it's possible to get 4 annual passes at $20 each and then apply that to a lifetime pass.

 

[bcla]

Right. All NPS entrance fees were drastically increased a few years ago -- I think in 2015-2016. Now most parks are at least $25, and just about all of the larger, more popular parks are $35.

That makes the "interagency pass" a no-brainer. And yes, it IS still called the "America The Beautiful" pass.

But there are notable exceptions.

For example, America's most popular national park is Great Smoky Mountains NP. The land for Great Smokys was donated to NPS by the states of North Carolina and Tennessee -- with the proviso that there would never be an entrance fee charged. 12.5 MILLION visitors in 2019...and not one penny of entrance fee collected!

I took note of how much the entrance fees were years ago. $10 was pretty common. $20 used to be the highest entrance fee. Even when I made a long trip I had to think of how much individual entrance fees would cost. I did a trip that included Crater Lake NP ($10), Olympic NP ($15), Mt Rainier NP ($15), and Mt St Helens NVM ($8 x 2 for the entrance to the museum). So $56 for that trip, although I already had a pass that I bought at Yosemite. Eventually I got over $100 in entrance fees in trips. But these days it's got to be at least double that when the pass cost hasn't changed.

Heck - back then I was a little bit worried. I was supposed go in 2006 when they still had a $50 national parks only pass. There was an option to get a $65 interagency annual pass or (when needed) request a $15 add-on sticker to access non-NPS sites (Forest Service, BLM, Army Corps, TVA, etc.) I was kind of interested in TVA, although that's not listed on the current passes. I couldn't make that trip and ended up spending $30 more although I used it later.

 

[MrsPete]

Not any more. They've had completely separate entrance fees for a few years.

Huh, I didn't know. We haven't been "out West" since 2009.

Moral is still the same: do your homework.

Right. All NPS entrance fees were drastically increased a few years ago -- I think in 2015-2016.

Still a great bargain.

For example, America's most popular national park is Great Smoky Mountains NP. The land for Great Smokys was donated to NPS by the states of North Carolina and Tennessee -- with the proviso that there would never be an entrance fee charged. 12.5 MILLION visitors in 2019...and not one penny of entrance fee collected!

The Smokeys is a huge park with so many entrances that it'd be hard to "gate it". Not impossible, of course: they did it with Yellowstone, but not easy.

Basically, pick one park to visit a year. If you have time, go to more than one. They’re wonderful.

Great advice, but easier if you live in the West. We East-coasters don't have quite the selection you do.

The price went up. It used to be $10 for a lifetime pass. Now it's kind of complicated, but in general it's $80 one way or another. I believe it's possible to get 4 annual passes at $20 each and then apply that to a lifetime pass.

Thoughts:
- Paying the $80 up front seems to be the smarter choice. The rule RIGHT NOW is 4 annual passes x $20 ... but it's quite possible they'd change the rule: they could increase the $20/year, or they could say no more credit for old passes. Or they could quit selling the passes altogether. If you go ahead and buy the $80 pass, you've "locked in the price" for life. The pass is inflation-proof.
- It's actually $90. $10 processing.
- The senior citizen pass belongs to one person, right? So my husband will be eligible before me -- he can bring me (most places) with his pass, but if he were to die, I'd be S.O.L., right? I could no longer use HIS pass?
- When we had our America the Beautiful Pass, they DID ask for a picture ID to accompany the Pass in several parks. Maybe even the majority of the parks. I totally get why they have to do that.
- I'm definitely getting the senior citizen pass for my husband the year he turns 62. I know he'll say, "Best birthday gift ever". And he's an October boy, which is nice camping weather.
- The pass also provides some discounts.

 

[bcla]

Thoughts:
- Paying the $80 up front seems to be the smarter choice. The rule RIGHT NOW is 4 annual passes x $20 ... but it's quite possible they'd change the rule: they could increase the $20/year, or they could say no more credit for old passes. Or they could quit selling the passes altogether. If you go ahead and buy the $80 pass, you've "locked in the price" for life. The pass is inflation-proof.
- It's actually $90. $10 processing.
- The senior citizen pass belongs to one person, right? So my husband will be eligible before me -- he can bring me (most places) with his pass, but if he were to die, I'd be S.O.L., right? I could no longer use HIS pass?
- When we had our America the Beautiful Pass, they DID ask for a picture ID to accompany the Pass in several parks. Maybe even the majority of the parks. I totally get why they have to do that.
- I'm definitely getting the senior citizen pass for my husband the year he turns 62. I know he'll say, "Best birthday gift ever". And he's an October boy, which is nice camping weather.
- The pass also provides some discounts.

Oh yeah. My mom got a 50% senior discount on an official tour. Seniors without a senior pass don't get that discount. And one has to be a US citizen/national or a permanent resident to get a senior lifetime pass. Foreign visitors can get the $80 regular annual pass. The latter has room for two signatures and any two people are allowed to use it. And yes a senior pass can only be used by one person. But it allows a whole vehicle full of people in with the passholder.

$10 processing is only if it's not obtained in person. I don't know if it's really worth it to get it in advance. I can't think of much reason to not put if off until arriving on site. The only thing I can think of is getting the "hang tag" that's useful for places where it substitutes for a parking fee or where an entrance fee isn't taken at an entrance station (like Death Valley). In Death Valley the fee is paid at a visitor center or self-serve station where a receipt is placed on the dash of a vehicle when parked. But I thought the hang tag could be used. The expiration date on the pass is supposed to be visible. The hang tag is also supposed to be marked with the pass number and expiration date. I think there's a non-expiring one for lifetime senior passes.

The other rule is supposed that it has to be 4 consecutive years of senior passes, although it's not clear what that means. Annual passes can be valid for up to 13 months because of the way they're marked with a hole punch. So I get one on November 1, 2020, it will be punched for November 2021. I'm not sure how it works when they don't overlap. Suppose someone gets 4 annual senior passes that expire in November 2021, December 2022, January 2024, and February 2025. Is that "4 consecutive years"?

I still don't see the rule changing though. The 4 consecutive pass rule is specifically written into federal law. I don't see this rule changing unless maybe they go back to a $10/20 lifetime pass.

 

[JimMIA]

The other rule is supposed that it has to be 4 consecutive years of senior passes, although it's not clear what that means. Annual passes can be valid for up to 13 months because of the way they're marked with a hole punch. So I get one on November 1, 2020, it will be punched for November 2021. I'm not sure how it works when they don't overlap. Suppose someone gets 4 annual senior passes that expire in November 2021, December 2022, January 2024, and February 2025. Is that "4 consecutive years"?

You're technically right, but I don't think that's going to be an issue for a couple of reasons.

1. It's about the MONEY, not the number of days. If you paid $80 for 4 annual Senior passes, they're gonna give you a LIfetime pass. In fact, if you've bought 3 passes, pony up another $20...why would they not just give you the Lifetime pass. $80 is $80 is $80.
2. Individual park managers can have whatever hair-splitting nuances they want (and their job is to create hair-splitting nuances!), but it's not in their hands. In the real world, some adorable senior citizen is going to roll up to an entrance station and proudly present four annual Senior Passes. The fee collector sitting in the booth is not going to argue. They will take the four passes and issue the new Lifetime pass. And once they issue that new pass -- it's over. The deal is done, and nothing some paper-shuffler in HQ can do is going to change the decision the fee collector rightfully made.

*****
Totally irrelevant trivia:
A few years ago, a buddy of mine turned 62. For his birthday, I bought him a lifetime Senior Pass for $10. I guarantee you that turkey has never used that priceless gift -- and has probably lost it. If I find out he lost it, I'm going to work his wife and daughter so hard he'll have to take them on a big trip and pay $80 for a replacement! (except that he'd opt for the $20 annual pass!)

 

[bcla]

You're technically right, but I don't think that's going to be an issue for a couple of reasons.

1. It's about the MONEY, not the number of days. If you paid $80 for 4 annual Senior passes, they're gonna give you a LIfetime pass. In fact, if you've bought 3 passes, pony up another $20...why would they not just give you the Lifetime pass. $80 is $80 is $80.
2. Individual park managers can have whatever hair-splitting nuances they want (and their job is to create hair-splitting nuances!), but it's not in their hands. In the real world, some adorable senior citizen is going to roll up to an entrance station and proudly present four annual Senior Passes. The fee collector sitting in the booth is not going to argue. They will take the four passes and issue the new Lifetime pass. And once they issue that new pass -- it's over. The deal is done, and nothing some paper-shuffler in HQ can do is going to change the decision the fee collector rightfully made.

*****
Totally irrelevant trivia:
A few years ago, a buddy of mine turned 62. For his birthday, I bought him a lifetime Senior Pass for $10. I guarantee you that turkey has never used that priceless gift -- and has probably lost it. If I find out he lost it, I'm going to work his wife and daughter so hard he'll have to take them on a big trip and pay $80 for a replacement! (except that he'd opt for the $20 annual pass!)

I bought them for my parents back in 2006. Actually it was for my mom first when we went together to Muir Woods National Monument. I think the entrance fee was only $3 per person at the time, but we were planning on the upcoming trip so it made sense. Once on the trip my dad and I went out for dinner without my mom, and I said I'd just buy him a pass. We probably could have asked for a re-entrance permit though when we first entered with my mom. I got one of those before just so I could go hiking in the morning.

Next year my mom couldn't find her's, so I got her a new pass. That time it was the new pass and not the old, ugly one. The older one had their weird outline of a bird and was called the "Golden Age Passport".

Yeah - I get that they're probably not going to go crazy insisting that it has to be exact. There's a ton of technical language in the law too. "The Secretary" is supposed to refer to the Secretary of the Interior or the Secretary of Agriculture.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/16/6804​

(1)Age discount​

(A)The Secretary shall make the National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Pass available to any United States citizen or person domiciled in the United States who is 62 years of age or older, if the citizen or person provides adequate proof of such age and such citizenship or residency. The National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Passmade available under this subsection shall be available—
(i)

for a period of 12 months from the date of the issuance, at a cost of $20; and​

(ii)

for the lifetime of the passholder, at a cost equal to the cost of the National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Pass purchased under subsection (a).​

(B)

The Secretary shall issue a pass under subparagraph (A)(ii), for no additional cost, to any individual who provides evidence, under policies and guidelines determined by the Secretary, that the individual has purchased a pass under subparagraph (A)(i) for each of the 4 years prior to being issued a pass under this subparagraph.​

 

[bcla]

- Paying the $80 up front seems to be the smarter choice. The rule RIGHT NOW is 4 annual passes x $20 ... but it's quite possible they'd change the rule: they could increase the $20/year, or they could say no more credit for old passes. Or they could quit selling the passes altogether. If you go ahead and buy the $80 pass, you've "locked in the price" for life. The pass is inflation-proof.

The price of the lifetime senior pass is fixed at the price of the regular annual pass, which can change based on these federal agencies deciding on a price increase. The $20 per year is actually fixed in the law. So if the price ever went up to $120, it would still be $20 per year for the senior annual pass unless the law is changed, and still 4 passes turned in for a lifetime pass. Once the price of the lifetime pass goes up, getting the 4 annual passes makes more financial sense. That's one heck of a loophole.

 

[hsmamato2]

That's not really hiking but wading. It's also an ankle killer because of all the smooth rocks on the bottom of the Virgin River. I wore some rather unique lightweight hiking boots with ankle support. I had them aired out with a fan n our hotel bathroom. I saw a lot of people who had gone to outfitters in Sprindale and rented neoprene boots that wrap up the ankle, plus wooden hiking sticks.

That can be dangerous because of the possibility of summer rains and flash floods. They advise to check the weather forecast at one of the visitor centers.

They rent "jello boots" right there at the entrance to the park- highly recommend doing this for the Narrows. They're weird shoes that sluice the water thru as you walk,we are average walkers and spent 7 hours walking in and out again while there bc these boots enabled us to go farther. It was an awesome day.(we had to hike about 1/2 mile at least in to get past the crowds)

 

[Bianca and Bernard]

I would not choose RMNP right now. Major wildfire. Grand Lake CO was evacuated last night. I spent so many summers up there at either my grandpa's place (between GL and Granby), or camping in the RMNP. (Grandpa's property was sold once he passed away, by my uncle, so we aren't losing anything now, but the area where the property is is on fire, and the homes built in that area are gone.)

On a slightly more positive note, the Castillo de San Marco is now opened up to the public. No cannons, though, to help stop people from gathering in one spot, and limited to 100 people at a time. https://www.nps.gov/casa/index.htm

 

[JimMIA]

A Note for our Canadian brothers and sisters:
Unfortunately, you are not authorized to purchase Senior Passes. Regular annual passes, yes; Senior Passes, NO. One must be a US citizen or permanent resident to purchase a Senior Pass.

There's a reason why I bring this up. Here in South Florida, we get huge numbers of wonderful Canadian visitors each year, and many of them stay several months. I'm not sure where it's happening, but somewhere near the US/Canadian border in eastern Canada, some NPS unit (or other participating agency) is selling Senior Passes to anyone with proof that they are 62 years of age, regardless of citizenship. It's been going on for years.

The Canadians are apparently not aware that they aren't allowed to buy Senior Passes. A couple of years ago, I was talking to a friend at one of the entrance stations of Everglades NP when a herd of Canadian motorcyclists pulled up. Five couples on five big Harleys. They proudly presented their Senior Passes and their Quebec drivers licenses. Their Senior Passes were confiscated. No money back, no admission to the park, nothing. Needless to say, they were not happy and roared away rather than pay the entrance fee.

That was back in the day of the $10 Senior Pass. It would be a shame for our Canadian friends to pay $80, or even $20, and then have the pass taken away.

 

[ironz]

Wow, they've stepped up that program! I'm quite sure I didn't have choices when I bought ours years ago -- but I did buy extra pages.

While we're on this subject, does anyone have the National Parks game? I'd like to get it for my husband for Christmas, but it's pretty expensive.

We got the National Park game this summer and played it once. It's good, but the rules are sort of weird-- you are collecting cards, matching icons to cards, and traveling around the board. So I'm not sure if it's worth $50 if you're not going to play it a lot, but the parts (movable figures, board, cards) are of good quality, so that probably adds to the cost of the game. We'll have to give it a try on our next camping trip and see if we enjoy it more, without having to learn the rules all over. (I realize that's not super helpful)