Possible update to Genie+

Nailed it ... this is the con, and people just fall for it. Let alone the G+ is fundamentally no different than FP+ which used to be included in ticket price, now you pay extra AND the ticket costs more, and people will still be like "So glad they brought in G+"
Agreed G+ is fundamentally the same as FP. But since it's now a paid service, the lines are  much quicker than before. Take Frozen for example, it used to be 20 min just to move through the  FP line, now it's just a walk-through, saving at least 15 min.

Frozen had a standby time of 75 min when we were at Epcot yesterday. Judging from the length and the speed of the queue, it would've taken at least an hour to reach the boat. At that point, I personally didn't care if Disney had inflated the time to 75 min when in reality it may have been 60 to 70 min. Kudos to the people who want to wait just to prove G+ is a con.
 
It's not like the old FP+ system was without its flaws.

If you just spent $10,000 on a package to stay in a deluxe resort, then found out you needed to book all the good FP+ attractions 60+ days ago. You spend your trip waiting in line while people staying at the All-Stars zoom past. You hate waiting and line and there is nothing you can do to buy your way to the front. What kind of awful service is this, treating your best customers that way?

Let's say you're a Disney shareholder. Universal, Six Flags and all those other theme parks are making bank on people paying to cut the lines. What kind of horrible mismanagement just lets all those potential profits just go down the drain?

More than ever before, people don't want to wait in line. And more people than ever have a pile of money they want to give Disney so they can skip the lines all day. They want to pay. They value their time at the park more than others and want to buy that time.

Coming up with a perfect system to allow line skipping while keeping the free line moving is likely impossible.
 
I agree that WDW needs to bring back longer park hours. Animal Kingdom is gorgeous at night but people rarely get to see it. While I agree they need to add more attractions, I don't think they need Dumbo-type ones. They need large capacity attractions. THe Great Move Ride and the backstage tram tour both held a ton of people. Then they replaced the the rides with much lower capacity ones. Same thing with the Horizons and World of Energy ones in Epcot. It's great to have thrill rides, but add some more indoor, family friendly (no height restrictions or risk to those with back and heart problems), continuous moving rides like the Haunted Mansion and Spaceship Earth. I used to love Disney for having attractions that appealed to kids, adults and non-thrill seekers. They seem to have forgotten that segment.
 
I agree that WDW needs to bring back longer park hours. Animal Kingdom is gorgeous at night but people rarely get to see it. While I agree they need to add more attractions, I don't think they need Dumbo-type ones. They need large capacity attractions. THe Great Move Ride and the backstage tram tour both held a ton of people. Then they replaced the the rides with much lower capacity ones. Same thing with the Horizons and World of Energy ones in Epcot. It's great to have thrill rides, but add some more indoor, family friendly (no height restrictions or risk to those with back and heart problems), continuous moving rides like the Haunted Mansion and Spaceship Earth. I used to love Disney for having attractions that appealed to kids, adults and non-thrill seekers. They seem to have forgotten that segment.
Runaway Railroad and The Great Movie Ride have the same capacity of around 2,400 guests per hour. Since they closed the Tram Ride in 2014 they added another track to Toy Story Mania, added Toy Story Land with Slinky Dog Dash, Alien Swirling Saucers and two Star Wars Galaxy's Edge attractions.

All those additions have made Hollywood Studios a lot more popular, driving bigger crowds. A few years ago, many people considered Hollywood a "half-day" park.

Hopefully, they will put something in the Little Mermaid show area. I liked the Star Wars fireworks show, but guests didn't like picking between that and Fantasmic since they were going at the same time.

Some attractions are more popular than others. Probably 80% of the guests want to ride Slinky -- and more than once. It has a broader appeal than the other thrill rides there. It just doesn't have the capacity to keep the lines down.

I think this is similar to the popularity of the Mine Train at MK. It really hits a sweet-spot for thrills and hits every age group, making it super-busy.
 
Some of us just want the best trip possible. We aren't overthinking it. We're just doing what works for us. Vacations are for having fun and relaxing. I don't care about the corporate money making strategy. I'll keep paying to play until it isn't satisfying anymore. Then I'll go somewhere else or stay home. Everyone is free to do the same.

If you want the best trip possible and lines are a concern to you, guided tours exist for that reason.

It's not about Disney making money in this case, it's about them literally sabotaging the base price experience to convince people genie is needed.
 
If you want the best trip possible and lines are a concern to you, guided tours exist for that reason.

It's not about Disney making money in this case, it's about them literally sabotaging the base price experience to convince people genie is needed.
And all these people pretending like G+ is a "choice" it's not, you get impacted either way. Either you pay for it, and pass your wait times on to others, or you don't pay for it and the people using it pass their wait times on to you. You are still paying for G+ when you don't use it, you pay for it by waiting in line longer while other people get to skip the lines.
 
I can't help but wonder if they are trying to phase out park-hopping altogether. Maybe that's actually the goal? We've always gotten parkhoppers as a rule, but we see less value in it with the 2pm rule. I fully expected to see an announcement about that when they announced the end of park reservations, but it seems like 2pm is here to stay. Combine that with (possibly/likely) paying a premium for multipark Genie+, I can't say I think we'd be investing in parkhoppers again.
Park Hopping is a dream for Disney.... They charge you more for the ticket, and reduce capacity in each park as people move to and fro one park to another. You spend time going to and from the parks. It's not like the parks are super close to each other. The one issue that they had was early on during COVID reopening, they had to make sure that each park was staffed appropriately, and they were trying to limit capacity much more than they are now. I think Parkhoppers will be around to stay.

That said, we never park hop. We live close enough we pick a park or two for each time we visit if we stay one or two days, and then come back a month or two later and go to another park. So, this change to Genie+ we view as a net positive, because my view is the prices were going to increase no matter what. It now lets us consider buying Genie+ for parks we never would have before, because the price value wasn't there. Previously we have only bought Genie+ at MK. For the right price we'd pay a little extra to do Remy and Frozen without the wait.
 
Frozen had a standby time of 75 min when we were at Epcot yesterday. Judging from the length and the speed of the queue, it would've taken at least an hour to reach the boat. At that point, I personally didn't care if Disney had inflated the time to 75 min when in reality it may have been 60 to 70 min. Kudos to the people who want to wait just to prove G+ is a con.

You are visiting at one of the lowest attended months of the last few years. There's no way Frozen's standby was actually 75 minutes. I bet the real wait was around 40. Again, in a park that has very few attractions for children (or really anyone?) of that age to do.

It's not about proving Genie+ is a con. It's about being a smart consumer and understanding that Disney is doing quite a few things to lower their costs and increase yours.
 
You hate waiting and line and there is nothing you can do to buy your way to the front. What kind of awful service is this, treating your best customers that way?
You can always buy a VIP package if you feel the need to flex on the poors that badly. If you can't afford it, then bad news, you are not as privileged as you may feel you deserve to be.
 
Various thoughts, in no particular order:

- I'm quite sure that Disney is overstating standby wait times. If not deliberately, they've at least made the conscious decision to not bring back the tap card system which continuously updated wait times before Covid. There's always been some element of ambiguity--standby times rely a lot on the number of FP/G+ users who enter the queue while you're waiting. But as a general rule, it's safe to assume a posted 40 minute wait is probably closer to 25-30.

- Based upon my own experiences and observations, most standby lines today are shorter than in the FP+ era. Prior to 2020, so much of ride capacity had been dedicated to FP+ that standby became truly oppressive. Even rides like POTC and Star Tours frequently had 45+ minute waits with FP+. Now those wait times are more of the outlier.

- The reduced standby time mostly benefits second and third tier attractions.

- For top tier attractions, wait times seem to be more a case of "water finding its own level." The Disney community has collectively decided that 60-90 minutes is the maximum acceptable wait time for things like 7DMT, RNR, TOT, FOP, etc. Despite the fact that less capacity is dedicated to G+ / LL, there are more people getting in Standby which keeps those wait times around that same level.

- I don't really buy the idea that Disney trips have "gotten more complicated" with respect to Genie+. Pre-Covid, people had to start thinking about dining reservations 6 months in advance and rides 2 months in advance. FP+ had 3 per day limit, tiered attractions, etc. There are certain aspects of Genie which are worse than FP (and some which are better), but overall they're just different flavors of ice cream.

- Things like Park Pass and the 2pm park hopping restriction do actually complicate things. (Though, under the old system everyone was taking about meals 6 months out and rides 2 months out--I don't really see where park planning is all that cumbersome. It's just an extra step in the process.)

- Like many systems, FP+ benefitted those who best understood how it worked. Those who were on their computers at 6am 60 days out could book Slinky, RNR and Runaway Railway without a problem. Those who didn't understand FP+, were staying off-site or had the gall to make a spur of the moment decision to visit the parks found themselves left with the likes of Star Tours, Alien Saucers and Muppetvision.

- Similarly, Genie+ works best if you have some understanding of which rides are most popular, how quickly they sell, out, etc. You can't expect to open the app after 2pm and find a pass for Remy or Slinky.

- Genie+ makes most sense to purchase on a day when you specifically plan to load-up on attractions. It's not unrealistic to get 8 or 10 or 12 Genie attractions in a single day. Do that once or twice over the course of a trip, and take a more laid-back approach to the non-Genie days.

- FP+ was much better if you prefer to consume theme parks in small bites. And especially if you wish to arrive later in the day. Genie+ practically forces people to arrive at opening to make the most of their day.

- FP+ seemed to do a better job of spreading out crowds throughout the day. Someone who schedules their three FP rides for 4, 5 and 6PM has no great reason to arrive before that. With Genie+, crowds seem more slanted toward the morning and early afternoon. Within the last 3-4 hours of any park's operating day, 5-10 minute waits seem commonplace for second and third tier attractions.

- Business at the theme parks now is certainly slower than 2022. But it's impossible to gauge how that translates with regard to profitability. Bounce back offers, "free dining", AP discount and more were all commonplace in 2019 and before.

- Would Disney be doing "better" if prices were lower? I guess that depends on your measure. They'd get more people in the parks. But lower prices means less profit margin on every unit sold. This isn't a precise equation but if you charge 20% less and attract 20% more customers, you're basically expending extra effort to make the same amount of money.

- Right now it's en vogue to say "I'm reducing my visits to the Disney Parks because of reasons X, Y and Z." What we don't know is if there are other people who are increasing their visits because of similar factors (Disney politics, low crowds, hotel discounts, dining plans returning, etc.)

- Disney went out of its way to get fat off the spike in travel demand that occurred in 2021 and 2022. And it worked. Discounting when things are slow is nothing new. It remains to be seen if this slow period will be any different than others, prompted by Disney alienating too many "core customers."
 
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You are visiting at one of the lowest attended months of the last few years. There's no way Frozen's standby was actually 75 minutes. I bet the real wait was around 40. Again, in a park that has very few attractions for children (or really anyone?) of that age to do.

It's not about proving Genie+ is a con. It's about being a smart consumer and understanding that Disney is doing quite a few things to lower their costs and increase yours.
A smart consumer knows when it's necessary to spend a little more to improve the experience.
Even if the real wait was 40 minutes, why would I want to wait that long when I could walk right on the boat?
 
Park Hopping is a dream for Disney.... They charge you more for the ticket, and reduce capacity in each park as people move to and fro one park to another. You spend time going to and from the parks. It's not like the parks are super close to each other.

I was watching a well known DisTuber this morning and they were recommending skipping rope drop so you can stay at your Disney hotel and "stack" your Genie+ selections for the afternoon/evening.

I thought you have to be Disney's favorite person ever.

🤣
 
I was watching a well known DisTuber this morning and they were recommending skipping rope drop so you can stay at your Disney hotel and "stack" your Genie+ selections for the afternoon/evening.

I thought you have to be Disney's favorite person ever.

🤣
Lol that's great. "Why bother going to the park you spent thousands of dollars to visit, when you can just go on any of the other 364 days of the year?" - Disney Vlogger logic
 
I was watching a well known DisTuber this morning and they were recommending skipping rope drop so you can stay at your Disney hotel and "stack" your Genie+ selections for the afternoon/evening.

I thought you have to be Disney's favorite person ever.

🤣
During a 2022 visit we used genie on our arrival day. Started booking from the airport / plane. By the time we hit Hollywood Studios at 1pm, had 3 rides lined up in a row. 3-4 hours at HS, break at the hotel, EPCOT at night. Ended up using genie 8x.

Cost of G+ is the obvious drawback. But we did more in less time than we would have with FP+, without having to make reservations 60 days out, deal with attraction tiers, etc.

EDIT: Actually it was 9 G+ attractions: Slinky, Smuggler's Run, Runaway Railway, TSM, Alien Saucers, Tower of Terror, Frozen, Mission Space and Soarin. (Though I recall Soarin being a virtual walk-on via Standby late in the evening.) Also rode Gran Fiesta Tour. All of that in maximum 6 hours of park time, which included QS lunch and TS dinner.

That simply was not possible with FP+. Even if we could get FastPasses for Slinky, Smuggler's Run and RR, the other 6 attractions routinely had 30-60 minute standby time due to the need to grant 3 FPs to every single guest.

I'm not trying to claim that Genie+ is superior to FP+ in every way. The cost is an obvious difference which cannot be overcome. But depending on well one planned or how one toured the parks, FP+ could be pretty awful for many guests. There are ways to make Genie+ palatable without breaking the bank.
 
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During a 2022 visit we used genie on our arrival day. Started booking from the airport / plane. By the time we hit Hollywood Studios at 1pm, had 3 rides lined up in a row. 3-4 hours at HS, break at the hotel, EPCOT at night. Ended up using genie 8x.

Cost of G+ is the obvious drawback. But we did more in less time than we would have with FP+, without having to make reservations 60 days out, deal with attraction tiers, etc.

You are also an expert at using the system and fellow DVC member to boot. The average Disney guest has no idea how to maximize the service like you did.

They'd buy their Genie+ ($150+ for their 5 person family) at 3 p.m. when they get to the park and end up desperately trying to book B or C tier attractions.

At least with FP+, they knew they were going to get to ride 3 attractions and if they booked through a decent travel agent they got help booking it and it was INCLUDED in their park ticket.

I've been four times since Genie+ was implemented. Guests are frustrated and it's coming at cost to the user experience and now possibly even attendance.
 
It's not like the old FP+ system was without its flaws.

If you just spent $10,000 on a package to stay in a deluxe resort, then found out you needed to book all the good FP+ attractions 60+ days ago. You spend your trip waiting in line while people staying at the All-Stars zoom past. You hate waiting and line and there is nothing you can do to buy your way to the front. What kind of awful service is this, treating your best customers that way?

Let's say you're a Disney shareholder. Universal, Six Flags and all those other theme parks are making bank on people paying to cut the lines. What kind of horrible mismanagement just lets all those potential profits just go down the drain?

More than ever before, people don't want to wait in line. And more people than ever have a pile of money they want to give Disney so they can skip the lines all day. They want to pay. They value their time at the park more than others and want to buy that time.

Coming up with a perfect system to allow line skipping while keeping the free line moving is likely impossible.
We should do class based stand by, if you make a certain amount of money you wait in the First Class line. But remember to wear your top hat and monocle so we can properly identify you.
 
The average Disney guest has no idea how to maximize the service like you did.
Well, you were critical of a podcast that recommended arriving late and stacking attractions. A podcast that was apparently trying to pass along some knowledge from experienced users.

Those who understand the system best will always benefit. Same was true of FP+ and the paper FP tickets before that.

They'd buy their Genie+ ($150+ for their 5 person family) at 3 p.m. when they get to the park and end up desperately trying to book B or C tier attractions.
If people are naive enough to buy Genie at 3pm and expect the world, I'm not sure what we can to do help them.

That said, it's 4:30pm right now. Every attraction is still available for today at MK. At HS, only Slinky and RNR are unavailable. You can chalk that up to slow summer crowds + July heat, but it's fairly consistent with the 7-8 times we've used Genie since its introduction.

At least with FP+, they knew they were going to get to ride 3 attractions and if they booked through a decent travel agent they got help booking it and it was INCLUDED in their park ticket.
We both know what sort of FP+ attractions they'd get at 3pm. And a travel agent can help someone understand Genie before arriving, and even help manage their rides remotely.

I've been four times since Genie+ was implemented. Guests are frustrated and it's coming at cost to the user experience and now possibly even attendance.
One type of guest was frustrated with Genie+. Another type of guest was frustrated with FastPass+.

I think the Genie frustration is mostly about the cost rather than the product itself. FP+ was full of warts. There was never a world where you could walk into Hollywood Studios same day and book Slinky, Smuggler's Run and Runaway Railway for same-day rides. That required months of advance planning. Anyone who thought they could drive up to WDW, plop down their $120 and not face hour-long waits for every attraction was in for a rude awakening.

Which is better? Depends on what sort of guest one might be.

I don't see a world where paid line skipping goes away. Disney's competitors have been doing it for years. So if I'm going to pay, I think Genie delivers a better overall product than FP+ did. There are things I would do to improve Genie. But it's still better than 3 attractions booked 2 months in advance with tiering.
 
I won't argue with you that Genie may be better than FP+ (which required WAY too much advance planning), but I will argue that it isn't as good as the original FP system would be if it were updated to work electronically, but with the same rules as it originally had. No FP access until you reach the park, and once you got one you couldn't obtain another until you were within 60 minutes of the return time of the first one. It was an effective system that spread ride access well and freed guests to spend more at merch/food outlets without extra ride charges being necessary. (What we found was that if we had to spend extra money to access a ride, that was money that we were not going to spend on merchandise or snacks. We bought zero merchandise in a week, even with our AP discounts; we did spend money on cold drinks, but that was about it.)

My DD reminded me the other day as we were leaving Epcot to catch a plane that there was one aspect of the old paper FP system that just can't be replicated: the joy of making a stranger's day by giving them one. My DD got evac'd off Ratatouille just before we had to leave the park for the airport, and the CMs gave her a free LL for that day for her trouble. She couldn't use it, and would have loved to have been able to gift it to a stranger on our way out. It used to be a really lovely thing to be able to do for someone.
 
I won't argue with you that Genie may be better than FP+ (which required WAY too much advance planning), but I will argue that it isn't as good as the original FP system would be if it were updated to work electronically, but with the same rules as it originally had. No FP access until you reach the park, and once you got one you couldn't obtain another until you were within 60 minutes of the return time of the first one.
The first item is certainly an option. That's actually how Genie+ currently works at Disneyland--you cannot get your first pass until physically in the park. However, at WDW, I think it would place much greater stress on the transportation system, parking attendants, gate attendants, security, etc. It would force even more people into the parks early, serving as a reward for those who arrived at "rope drop", meaning even longer lines forming outside the parks before guests are allowed in.

My guess is that internally Disney feels that the short waits of Early Entry are reward enough for the early risers, and they don't want to double dip by also making them the only ones who can get Genie passes.

As for the second point, the time windows on Genie+ are essentially the same as the paper FastPass. With FP, you could get a new ticket either when the start of your return window arrived OR after 2 hours has passed.

If you were getting a paper FP at 12:00pm and the return window was 1:05-2:05, you could get the next FP anytime after 1:05. If the return time was 4:30-5:30, you could get another pass after 2pm (2 hours after getting the last.) It's the same for Genie, with the caveat that now you have to actually tap-in at one attraction before getting the next pass. The time component for passes which have lengthy return delays has always been 2 hours.
 
We both know what sort of FP+ attractions they'd get at 3pm. And a travel agent can help someone understand Genie before arriving, and even help manage their rides remotely.
They would've had 3 already booked months out.
 

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