2023 Point Charts Released

[JETSDAD]

I think OKW is the easiest to move points between room sizes because each building is a unit which would have a mix of room sizes. Otherwise it's very difficult or impossible within the rules of the POS.

 

[Splashboat]

If I read this correct, a 1 bedroom sv at BWV went from 154 points (not that long ago) to 180.

 

[JETSDAD]

If I read this correct, a 1 bedroom sv at BWV went from 154 points (not that long ago) to 180.

I assume you're meaning the first couple of weeks of December? If so that's quite possible. They've been bumping up fall and Dec and reducing other times of year to try to even out demand.

 

[DVCSunDevil]

Thanks! And wow. When we bought in Nov. 1997, our 300 BWV points got us a 2 BR Preferred view for Thanksgiving week. In 2023 that week will cost 351 points! I'm glad we don't travel the same time and don't need a 2 BR all the time anymore!

This is interesting to me. From what I understood, overall DVC points can't "inflate" because there are a fixed amount of points per resort. So I am curious as to how the cost to stay over a certain week have increased 16%. That would have to mean that other times of year have decreased by those same amount of points, correct? That is just such a large increase. Like you said, good thing you don't need that same week anymore!

 

[DVCSunDevil]

Just to add for others, it is only a real benefit if you will use it as a fixed week, even occasionally.

However, anyone buying now who thinks they would, its a great option since some weeks are already more so it’s a win when you will stay 7 days.

We opted not to get because we don’t travel a full week ever so it didn’t make sense.

Exactly. We looked at buying a fixed week when we were looking into buying DVC and it just didn't make sense for us. We didn't feel comfortable committing to the same week every single year, because we know things will change as the kids schedules change.

 

[Nabas]

I assume you're meaning the first couple of weeks of December? If so that's quite possible. They've been bumping up fall and Dec and reducing other times of year to try to even out demand.

Historically, July and August have been the easiest months to book a DVC room, the Fall and December the toughest.

It will be interesting to see what effect the 2023 point charts have on booking patterns.

 

[DVCSunDevil]

The new charts make significant changes, particularly among dates in particular seasons. DVC did cure the major problem with the new 7-season charts, which improperly used the change of the Easter date to effect a major difference in total points to reserve the resort from year to year. The 7-season charts as initially created had Palm Sunday through Easter in the highest seventh season, the Monday after Easter through the Saturday after Easter in season 6, all dates in March or April before Palm Sunday in season 6 and all dates in April after the Saturday after Easter in season 5. The effect of that arrangement for March and April was that total points for those two months (and thus for the year) would continuously increase the later the annual date for Easter. That possible change has been eliminated. All dates in March and April are now in season 6 except for the Palm Sunday to Easter dates in season 7. The result is that total points to reserve all of March and April will remain the same year after year regardless of the change in the Easter date.

What I am waiting to see is some of the total points analysis that some members have previously provided to see if total points are now near the known total points for each resort without major changes from year to year. Changes in total points should only occur from year to year because of natural calendar changes, e.g., leap years add a day to the 365-day year used to calculate total points and thus raise total points, some years have an additional, higher-point weekend day over other years, and some years will have an additional weekend day in a higher season.

At first glance, it does not appear an attempt was made to shift points among room sizes but more analysis is needed to confirm. Mentioned earlier is the assertion that OKW in 2008/2009 had, in its lowest season, a requirement of only 36 points per weekday night for a GV and now the lowest is 46, thus potentially proving that total points for GVs have risen and thus points have moved among room sizes. That change is actually unrelated to the current point chart changes. DVC for the 2010 charts and then again in 2011 made a major shift in points from weekend to weekdays and there was no shift of points between room sizes. After that change was completed, that 36 point per night figure was gone and the lowest weeknights of the year for OKW GV became, in 2011, 47 points per night, higher than even the 46 in the 2023 charts.

Unfortunately, didn't the member who did the most research on the 2020/2021 points charts "leave" this forum? I heard last year that they left...and I hope that isn't true. Although, I haven't seen them commenting since I heard that. Hopefully there are other member that can take up that torch!

 

[drusba]

This is interesting to me. From what I understood, overall DVC points can't "inflate" because there are a fixed amount of points per resort. So I am curious as to how the cost to stay over a certain week have increased 16%. That would have to mean that other times of year have decreased by those same amount of points, correct? That is just such a large increase. Like you said, good thing you don't need that same week anymore!

Total points needed to reserve all rooms for a 365-day calendar year are supposed to remain the same with two exceptions: (a) if DVC adds new rooms to a resort for sale, like it is doing now with VGF, total points will increase by the amount of points that will be sold for the new rooms; and (b) total points sold depends on the choice of a 365-day base year when the resort is first sold, and thereafter points to reserve all rooms for any calendar year may differ somewhat from that base year due to natural calendar changes, e.g., leap year adds a day to the year and thus adds a day's worth of points to reserve all rooms; similarly some years have one more higher-point weekend day than others or an extra weekend day in higher point seasons, thus raising total points needed to reserve all rooms for the year somewhat.

In response to changes in seasonal demand, DVCM (the resorts' managing entity) has the power, under the DVC Management Agreement, to change points needed to reserve rooms for any nights in a season but can do so if, and only if, any increase (or decrease) does not result in raising (or lowering) total points needed to reserve all rooms for the year. Thus, for example DVCM can raise points for studios for one season while lowering them by an equal total amount in one or more other seasons. It is limited, annually, absent a member vote, to make no changes that exceed a 20% increase (or decrease) for any given night. Thus, if DVC wanted to make a 30% change for any season, it would need to do that over at least a two-year period. Ultimately, in making a number of annual changes, DVCM could actually bring about a point chart that simply charges the same nightly points for a room for every day of the year (a possibility that is actually set out in the Membership Agreement).

The Fall season has long been the highest DVC demand time of the year at WDW. Changes being made now, by decreasing points needed for other times of the year and raising them for the Fall months, is a response to the extremely high demand that has existed for many years for Fall months in relation to others, e.g., the demand for the Fall months made much of summertime demand look like the slowest of off-seasons. However, you will not necessarily see a raise for a night in the Fall season being met by the exact same decrease for a night in another season, e.g., you could see a three-point increase in Fall set off by a combination of a one-point decrease in another season and two-points in a third, and the changes can result in the actual flipping of dates in seasons, e.g., May 1-14 is now in a lower season while December 1-14 (which has long been the highest demand time of the year) is now in a higher season.

 

[Matty B13]

I wonder if they are seeing such a high demand for FW's in the Fall that they finally decided to do something about it, since they end up having to make up the difference when they increase the chart afterwards.

 

[Sandisw]

This is interesting to me. From what I understood, overall DVC points can't "inflate" because there are a fixed amount of points per resort. So I am curious as to how the cost to stay over a certain week have increased 16%. That would have to mean that other times of year have decreased by those same amount of points, correct? That is just such a large increase. Like you said, good thing you don't need that same week anymore!

The increaee would be offset somewhere. But it would not have to be for the full week like it was.

For example, everything is day by day..if it was 150 for a 7 day trip, you will find someway to make a different set of 7 days match that. It may mean weekdays in on travel period and weekends in another.

I know my travel times in summer when we first bought are down a decent amount. So if I were still travel then, my points are definitely getting me more.

 

[DVCSunDevil]

Total points needed to reserve all rooms for a 365-day calendar year are supposed to remain the same with two exceptions: (a) if DVC adds new rooms to a resort for sale, like it is doing now with VGF, total points will increase by the amount of points that will be sold for the new rooms; and (b) total points sold depends on the choice of a 365-day base year when the resort is first sold, and thereafter points to reserve all rooms for any calendar year may differ somewhat from that base year due to natural calendar changes, e.g., leap year adds a day to the year and thus adds a day's worth of points to reserve all rooms; similarly some years have one more higher-point weekend day than others or an extra weekend day in higher point seasons, thus raising total points needed to reserve all rooms for the year somewhat.

In response to changes in seasonal demand, DVCM (the resorts' managing entity) has the power, under the DVC Management Agreement, to change points needed to reserve rooms for any nights in a season but can do so if, and only if, any increase (or decrease) does not result in raising (or lowering) total points needed to reserve all rooms for the year. Thus, for example DVCM can raise points for studios for one season while lowering them by an equal total amount in one or more other seasons. It is limited, annually, absent a member vote, to make no changes that exceed a 20% increase (or decrease) for any given night. Thus, if DVC wanted to make a 30% change for any season, it would need to do that over at least a two-year period. Ultimately, in making a number of annual changes, DVCM could actually bring about a point chart that simply charges the same nightly points for a room for every day of the year (a possibility that is actually set out in the Membership Agreement).

The Fall season has long been the highest DVC demand time of the year at WDW. Changes being made now, by decreasing points needed for other times of the year and raising them for the Fall months, is a response to the extremely high demand that has existed for many years for Fall months in relation to others, e.g., the demand for the Fall months made much of summertime demand look like the slowest of off-seasons. However, you will not necessarily see a raise for a night in the Fall season being met by the exact same decrease for a night in another season, e.g., you could see a three-point increase in Fall set off by a combination of a one-point decrease in another season and two-points in a third, and the changes can result in the actual flipping of dates in seasons, e.g., May 1-14 is now in a lower season while December 1-14 (which has long been the highest demand time of the year) is now in a higher season.

Thanks for confirming. That's exactly what I thought. I already knew that an increase in one season had to be accounted for by an equal decrease in other season(s). However, seeing such a dramatic increase in one season over time made me wonder. Especially with the "special math" DVC has used over the last couple of years. I'm not saying I don't trust DVC, but...

 

[drusba]

I wonder if they are seeing such a high demand for FW's in the Fall that they finally decided to do something about it, since they end up having to make up the difference when they increase the chart afterwards.

The extremely high demand for the Fall season has been a known issue for more than a decade. DVC has known of the problem for a long time and actually has been attempting to address it since adopting the new 7-season charts first issued in late 2019 to begin in 2021. However, it created a new problem with the 7-season charts by creating charts that charged far more total points per year than allowed, an action it partly attempted to fix with the mid-year modification that was made to the 2022 point charts, and now additional modifcations with the 2023 charts. The new 2023 charts are thus intended to correct two things: (a) a further correction to rectify the improper raising of total points for the year that DVC did when it introduced the 7-season charts; and (b) another change designed to raise Fall points and lower other times.

Whether the total point issue has been properly corrected awaits further analysis. Fall season points have obviously been raised again while lowering other seasons, but whether that will actually alleviate the Fall demand problem depends on what actually happens in the future. My guess is that there will be some demand changes, particularly since large numbers of members intentionally choose to use points in lower point-cost seasons, e.g., in the coming years May 1-14 may become a very high demand time.

 

[JETSDAD]

The extremely high demand for the Fall season has been a known issue for more than a decade. DVC has known of the problem for a long time and actually has been attempting to address it since adopting the new 7-season charts beginning innate 2020 to begin in 2021. However, it created a new problem with the 7-season charts by creating charts that charged far more total points per year than allowed, an action it partly attempted to fix with the mid-year modification that was made to the 2022 point charts, and now additional modifcations with the 2023 charts. The new 2023 charts are thus intended to correct two things: (a) a further correction to rectify the improper raising of total points for the year that DVC did when it introduced the 7-season charts; and (b) another change designed to raise Fall points and lower other times.

Whether the total point issue has been properly corrected awaits further analysis. Fall season points have obviously been raised again while lowering other seasons, but whether that will actually alleviate the Fall demand problem depends on what actually happens in the future. My guess is that there will be some demand changes, particularly since large numbers of members intentionally choose to use points in lower point-cost seasons, e.g., in the coming years May 1-14 may become a very high demand time.

That May timeline I think will be very popular. We've liked May already but will just make sure we stay in those first 2 weeks for the lower points.

 

[Epcot Forever Forever]

Unfortunately, didn't the member who did the most research on the 2020/2021 points charts "leave" this forum? I heard last year that they left...and I hope that isn't true. Although, I haven't seen them commenting since I heard that. Hopefully there are other member that can take up that torch!

They are still posting elsewhere, just not here. I think they started a DVC business and that makes it tricky to post here.

 

[CarolynFH]

Thanks for confirming. That's exactly what I thought. I already knew that an increase in one season had to be accounted for by an equal decrease in other season(s). However, seeing such a dramatic increase in one season over time made me wonder. Especially with the "special math" DVC has used over the last couple of years. I'm not saying I don't trust DVC, but...

Keep in mind that the increase I cited was over 24 years! Most of the increase was in the 2021, 2022, and now the 2023 charts as DVC reallocates to adjust demand, as it’s required to do, but some occurred earlier.

 

[JELLYROLLS4LIFE]

This is interesting to me. From what I understood, overall DVC points can't "inflate" because there are a fixed amount of points per resort. So I am curious as to how the cost to stay over a certain week have increased 16%. That would have to mean that other times of year have decreased by those same amount of points, correct? That is just such a large increase. Like you said, good thing you don't need that same week anymore!

Shifting points between seasons does this. As I said earlier, we have 75 points for a Boardwalk contract. In 2020, a week in a standard studio cost 78 points in October/early November, in 2023, that same stay is 104 points. That's a 25% increase in 3 years. Pool/Garden/Boardwalk views also went from 107 to 130, so slightly smaller but similar. So where I used to be able to do almost 7 nights a year, now I can just about do 5, and that's assuming I can get a standard view.

But in the case of these changes, they properly shifted the points from one season to another. In 2020, Summer was 108 pts per week in a standard, and 132 pts per week for a pool/garden/Boardwalk view. In 2023 the same summer stay is now 92 points and 116 points. Yes, this isn't the same amount lowered, but they have also lowered other times of the year as well. (May 1st to June 10th are also significantly lower than they were in 2020.)

I choose to use the example of Boardwalk but all the resort charts show the same shift. May 1st to August 30th have gone down, and October 1st to December 15th have gone up. No dirty deeds here, just depending on when you go this is either a benefit or detriment.

Unfortunately, didn't the member who did the most research on the 2020/2021 points charts "leave" this forum? I heard last year that they left...and I hope that isn't true. Although, I haven't seen them commenting since I heard that. Hopefully there are other member that can take up that torch!

I think I know who you mean, but there are certainly more than one person on here that knows a lot about these charts. In my view - @drusba is probably the person that knows more about these charts and they're history than anyone.

 

[DVCSunDevil]

I think I know who you mean, but there are certainly more than one person on here that knows a lot about these charts. In my view - @drusba is probably the person that knows more about these charts and they're history than anyone.

Yes, there are definitely a lot of people on here that know a ton about these charts. I have been a member on here for awhile and have had very good conversations with a lot of them. But the one particular person to whom I was referring did most of the digging and analysis on the chart fiasco of 2021/2021. That person was incredible. Drusba knows a great deal about the issue as well. Hell, Drusba has forgotten more on the subject than I probably currently know about it. But Drusba also commented that the question will become more clear when others do more analysis. The exact thought Drusba posted was "What I am waiting to see is some of the total points analysis that some members have previously provided to see if total points are now near the known total points for each resort without major changes from year to year". When I read that sentence, I immediately thought of the person who did the majority of the research previously...who unfortunately is not a commenting on here anymore.

I agree with your thought that this could be seen either as a benefit or a detriment depending on when you usually travel. As long as the total yearly points per resort don't increase like in 2020/2021 then it's all good. Some winners, some losers. But DVC would be staying within the POS and that's the most important thing.

 

[JETSDAD]

The numbers that I have seen posted elsewhere seem to look good with regards to the POS and shifting of points.

 

[Epcot Forever Forever]

The numbers that I have seen posted elsewhere seem to look good with regards to the POS and shifting of points.

That former member calculated a change of less than 1/1000th of a percent at OKW and even less elsewhere.

 

[JETSDAD]

That former member calculated a change of less than 1/1000th of a percent at OKW and even less elsewhere.

Yup...I read those numbers as well and thought that things looked good.