Does David's tell you if the renter cancels?

[tallguy001]

When this is over will credit card companies be willing to work with any business renting DVC?

It’s a good question. There are some business that are considered “high risk” (may not be a proper term) and they may drop them or significant increase the fees they pay.

 

[hlhlaw07]

I never claimed to be a lawyer.

It appears you are. Do you think the contracts are void? Do you think owners have breached the contract with David’s by their inability to honor the reservation contracted for? Are renters entitled to refunds for reservations that can’t be honored?

You are correct, I am a lawyer, and that is why you will not see me speaking in absolutes about any contract on a discussion board. There are quite a few of us who are attorneys on the DVC boards, and I haven’t seen a single one weigh in on the matter. I guarantee you it is not because they haven’t been reading, but most likely because our professional ethics and license would forbid us from giving legal advice on a discussion board. Also, this is not a once size fits all situation and what may be the right answer in one case will not yield the same results in another transaction.

I would strongly urge anyone in a position who believes they have lost money because an apparent breach of contract to reach out to an actual attorney. (This only applies to those who feel pursuing this is worth their time and money, because it will require both). A lot of attorneys will give you a free consultation and can advise whether you should pursue legal action (whether that be court action or even just a strongly worded letter from an attorney). Without someone examining the exact signed contracts you have and applicable provisions to the transaction, no one can say with any certainty who is owed a refund and who should be left holding the bag. There are many different aspects of contract law that come into play here, and it definitely is not as simple as the resort isn’t open so you have to give a refund. And there are very few instances, if any, of when a contract dispute over withholding funds one party feels entitled to under contract would morph into larceny (for the crazy references I saw made bringing criminal law into this).

 

[Brianstl]

You are correct, I am a lawyer, and that is why you will not see me speaking in absolutes about any contract on a discussion board. There are quite a few of us who are attorneys on the DVC boards, and I haven’t seen a single one weigh in on the matter. I guarantee you it is not because they haven’t been reading, but most likely because our professional ethics and license would forbid us from giving legal advice on a discussion board. Also, this is not a once size fits all situation and what may be the right answer in one case will not yield the same results in another transaction.

I would strongly urge anyone in a position who believes they have lost money because an apparent breach of contract to reach out to an actual attorney. (This only applies to those who feel pursuing this is worth their time and money, because it will require both). A lot of attorneys will give you a free consultation and can advise whether you should pursue legal action (whether that be court action or even just a strongly worded letter from an attorney). Without someone examining the exact signed contracts you have and applicable provisions to the transaction, no one can say with any certainty who is owed a refund and who should be left holding the bag. There are many different aspects of contract law that come into play here, and it definitely is not as simple as the resort isn’t open so you have to give a refund. And there are very few instances, if any, of when a contract dispute over withholding funds one party feels entitled to under contract would morph into larceny (for the crazy references I saw made bringing criminal law into this).

David’s contracts for both the owner and renter have been posted in this thread.

 

[tallguy001]

https://fingerlakes1.com/2020/02/17/phelps-contractor-charged-with-grand-larceny/
Contract disputes routinely end up with larceny charges. This is just one recent example.

 

[fsjking]

Is Canada talking any small business bailouts/loan to grant programs? If so, could David's be trying to string this along far enough to get to that point and try to make everyone whole that way? Or at least as a way to pay off the vast amount of chargebacks that are coming in a long closure.

 

[hlhlaw07]

https://fingerlakes1.com/2020/02/17/phelps-contractor-charged-with-grand-larceny/
Contract disputes routinely end up with larceny charges. This is just one recent example.

Again, not helpful to those who currently find themselves in this situation. You are posting about things you don’t understand. There is a vast difference between someone withholding funds under a contract with a non-refundable provision and believing they are acting according to a contract and someone contracting to provide services who has no intention of completing those services. Obviously I don’t know the facts of that specific case (and neither do you), but finding an example that you think is similar and using it to argue that contract disputes routinely end up as larceny charges demonstrates you know nothing about the law or the elements required to charge/prove a larceny.

 

[Brianstl]

Again, not helpful to those who currently find themselves in this situation. You are posting about things you don’t understand. There is a vast difference between someone withholding funds under a contract with a non-refundable provision and believing they are acting according to a contract and someone contracting to provide services who has no intention of completing those services. Obviously I don’t know the facts of that specific case (and neither do you), but finding an example that you think is similar and using it to argue that contract disputes routinely end up as larceny charges demonstrates you know nothing about the law or the elements required to charge/prove a larceny.

But there are multiple instances listed in the David’s contract where the owner has to make a refund including failure to honor the reservation. So it isn’t accurate to portray it as a non refundable contract clause. Inability to perform the terms of a contract is a breach of a contract.

 

[hlhlaw07]

But there are multiple instances listed in the David’s contract where the owner has to make a refund including failure to honor the reservation. So it isn’t accurate to portray it as a non refundable contract clause. Inability to perform the terms of a contract is a breach of a contract.

It could very well be breach of contract. Again, I have offered no legal opinion on whether there is a breach of contract and who in this instance has breached the contract of the three parties. What I have said, is that a potential contract dispute does not equate to larceny. There are very few crimes in this country that are committed without some form of intent. Larceny is a specific intent crime. Someone who believes they are acting in good faith under a non-refundable provision in a contract (which again, the breach of contract is not black and white here) is not likely committing a larceny. I have to keep going back to the fact there is a reason that a lawyer’s favorite phrase is “it depends.” There aren’t a whole lot of clear cut/black and white matters when it comes to the law. Anybody that tells you otherwise is probably someone who does not practice the law.

By all means, carry on the discussion. But it is not helpful to speak in absolutes. Some people may look at some of the postings here and wrongfully base their decisions on them. My intent is just to point out it’s not clear cut, and everyone should do what they think is right under the circumstance or contact and attorney for actual legal advice.

 

[GoingSince1990]

https://fingerlakes1.com/2020/02/17/phelps-contractor-charged-with-grand-larceny/
Contract disputes routinely end up with larceny charges. This is just one recent example.

Quite a big difference between a contractor ripping off an old lady by taking a $2,200 payment to redo her bathroom and then refusing to do any work, and an "average Joe" DVC points owner renting their DVC points out through a broker to someone who is then unable to check into the hotel because Disney closed it due to a pandemic. I doubt that many municipal police departments in the US would be very receptive to a phone call from Canada demanding that they arrest someone who rented their DVC points in this situation.

 

[Krandor]

The problem in that situation is that you have three parties and none of them have intentionally done anything wrong but if there expiring points there is a loss. The question is who takes the loss.

tough question and would likeky need a court to sort out but not sure anybody really wants it to go to court and David’s being in Canada complicates a lawsuit.

 

[McCrae]

The question is who takes the loss.

tough question and would likeky need a court to sort out but not sure anybody really wants it to go to court and David’s being in Canada complicates a lawsuit.

Adding to the complications the owner may also be based outside the US. Just imagine how Tricky it could be. Renter based in the US, Broker based in Canada and Owner based in the U.K. Each with different jurisdictions. Try sorting that mess our when it’s not clear who is in the right/wrong.

 

[Van Houten]

if there expiring points there is a loss. The question is who takes the loss.

That's exactly why credit card companies are handling these cases through a team in disputes department dedicated to timeshares. I have faith they can figure this out.

 

[tallguy001]

Quite a big difference between a contractor ripping off an old lady by taking a $2,200 payment to redo her bathroom and then refusing to do any work, and an "average Joe" DVC points owner renting their DVC points out through a broker to someone who is then unable to check into the hotel because Disney closed it due to a pandemic. I doubt that many municipal police departments in the US would be very receptive to a phone call from Canada demanding that they arrest someone who rented their DVC points in this situation.

So, you are okay with an old lady getting ripped off for double or triple that amount when it comes to DVC? Got it.

 

[tallguy001]

Again, not helpful to those who currently find themselves in this situation. You are posting about things you don’t understand. There is a vast difference between someone withholding funds under a contract with a non-refundable provision and believing they are acting according to a contract and someone contracting to provide services who has no intention of completing those services. Obviously I don’t know the facts of that specific case (and neither do you), but finding an example that you think is similar and using it to argue that contract disputes routinely end up as larceny charges demonstrates you know nothing about the law or the elements required to charge/prove a larceny.

No offense, but you clearly do not understand the concept of a void contract. David knows very well that these contracts are void - he has voiced as much in his emails to owners. Yet he continues to withhold funds to both owners awaiting their remaining 30% and renters requesting a refund.

 

[Judique]

So, you are okay with an old lady getting ripped off for double or triple that amount when it comes to DVC? Got it.

No offense, but you clearly do not understand the concept of a void contract. David knows very well that these contracts are void - he has voiced as much in his emails to owners. Yet he continues to withhold funds to both owners awaiting their remaining 30% and renters requesting a refund.

And it is clear to me that you are trying to take this thread in a direction that is not helpful to anyone looking to get a feel for what may happen or in which direction to take their particular problem.

Your posts are troll like and not helpful. It's probably time this thread was closed.

 

[hlhlaw07]

No offense, but you clearly do not understand the concept of a void contract. David knows very well that these contracts are void - he has voiced as much in his emails to owners. Yet he continues to withhold funds to both owners awaiting their remaining 30% and renters requesting a refund.

Yep, you’re right I don’t understand the concept of a void contract. I’ll just go ahead surrender my license to practice law today. Or better yet, I’ll stop banging my head against a wall and call it a day on this thread. By all means, continue spouting your misinformation and ridiculous interpretations of law. Have a great day with your superior understanding of contract law.

 

[tallguy001]

Yep, you’re right I don’t understand the concept of a void contract. I’ll just go ahead surrender my license to practice law today. Or better yet, I’ll stop banging my head against a wall and call it a day on this thread. By all means, continue spouting your misinformation and ridiculous interpretations of law. Have a great day with your superior understanding of contract law.

Yep, you’re right I don’t understand the concept of a void contract. I’ll just go ahead surrender my license to practice law today. Or better yet, I’ll stop banging my head against a wall and call it a day on this thread. By all means, continue spouting your misinformation and ridiculous interpretations of law. Have a great day with your superior understanding of contract law.

I am not reckless enough to announce “I am an attorney“ on a internet message board and then tell desperate people that they still have valid contracts when the resorts are closed. You‘ve announced that you are an attorney, so you should go ahead and throw out a disclaimer that your information should not be relied upon for legal advice.

 

[chicagodisneyguy]

‘Much more painless to initiate a credit card dispute.

I asked this in the other thread but didn't get clarity. Isn't there a time limit/time frame that you have to dispute a charge by? Can you dispute a charge from 11 months ago? From my limited Google search it seems to me If it was an unauthorized charge I think most banks would be willing to help. But an authorized charge, which the David's charge was, I think the banks might use times against renters.

Has anyone here initiated a charge back yet? I have no skin in this fight but it is good info to know for future purchases (travel or not).

 

[tallguy001]

I asked this in the other thread but didn't get clarity. Isn't there a time limit/time frame that you have to dispute a charge by? Can you dispute a charge from 11 months ago? From my limited Google search it seems to me If it was an unauthorized charge I think most banks would be willing to help. But an authorized charge, which the David's charge was, I think the banks might use times against renters.

Has anyone here initiated a charge back yet? I have no skin in this fight but it is good info to know for future purchases (travel or not).

Mastercard (as an example) has the following policy for “goods not received”

• 120 calendar days after the latest anticipated delivery date when the provision of goods or services was delayed

Although it was an authorized charge, you still have time after the anticipated date of delivery if the goods/services are not delivered.

 

[hlhlaw07]

I am not reckless enough to announce “I am an attorney“ on a internet message board and then tell desperate people that they still have valid contracts when the resorts are closed. You‘ve announced that you are an attorney, so you should go ahead and throw out a disclaimer that your information should not be relied upon for legal advice.

Nah, that’s not necessary. Unlike you I haven’t made any statements regarding the validity of the contracts. Maybe you should follow your own advice and throw out a disclaimer.