DVC Club Level and Home Resort Survey

[Cfabar1]

I have been saying that this change is a serious possibility for a long time. It is great for the developer, but less ideal for the consumer. Additionally, it would be a very convenient way to handle the 2042 problem in one fell swoop. Separately, and sooner, it would be a convenient way to solve the "how are we going to sell 4-5 resorts at once, including some that are on pace to continue to be sold for years?" conundrum.

Many have questioned me about this or called me crazy when I have suggested this idea before. But I think it will be seriously explored by Disney, and for all we know has been explored seriously many times over the years.

Disney would be foolish to not explore this. I would be shocked if DVC would not be able to do what Hyatt does, and operate the two systems (the old system with fixed weeks and home resorts) and the new system (a points "trust") simultaneously as they come into ownership of more points over time. Hyatt additionally has properties that were theirs and (arguably inferior) properties that joined their system complete with separate points valuations. My point in mentioning this is just to say, these systems do change over the years, and typically the developer has tremendous leeway.

Likely for existing owners, your home resort window and policies would stay the same. There are even ways to do it where the new system and old system can exchange between each other.

They may decide the pushback from owners is too strong. I know we would not be interested in buying generic points, we like knowing we own a specific resort, and I would not be interested in buying more weeks in a points system, and it would possibly cause us to sell our existing contracts. I think many owners would consider this, and sadly, that helps make a migration for Disney to a points trust easier as sellers leave the old system if Disney were to buy those points in ROFR and have a way to convert them from the old to the new. (once again, depends on what exactly is written in the deeds).

My advice, if you value having "your deeded resort" and want that to be the program you are in, buy more points now while you know you can. Also make clear to anyone at Disney who will listen you are not interested in a "points trust", but want deeded access to a specific resort.

 

[Sandisw]

I have been saying that this change is a serious possibility for a long time. It is great for the developer, but less ideal for the consumer. Additionally, it would be a very convenient way to handle the 2042 problem in one fell swoop. Separately, and sooner, it would be a convenient way to solve the "how are we going to sell 4-5 resorts at once, including some that are on pace to continue to be sold for years?" conundrum.

Many have questioned me about this or called me crazy when I have suggested this idea before. But I think it will be seriously explored by Disney, and for all we know has been explored seriously many times over the years.

Disney would be foolish to not explore this. I would be shocked if DVC would not be able to do what Hyatt does, and operate the two systems (the old system with fixed weeks and home resorts) and the new system (a points "trust") simultaneously as they come into ownership of more points over time. Hyatt additionally has properties that were theirs and (arguably inferior) properties that joined their system complete with separate points valuations. My point in mentioning this is just to say, these systems do change over the years, and typically the developer has tremendous leeway.

Likely for existing owners, your home resort window and policies would stay the same. There are even ways to do it where the new system and old system can exchange between each other.

They may decide the pushback from owners is too strong. I know we would not be interested in buying generic points, we like knowing we own a specific resort, and I would not be interested in buying more weeks in a points system, and it would possibly cause us to sell our existing contracts. I think many owners would consider this, and sadly, that helps make a migration for Disney to a points trust easier as sellers leave the old system if Disney were to buy those points in ROFR and have a way to convert them from the old to the new. (once again, depends on what exactly is written in the deeds).

My advice, if you value having "your deeded resort" and want that to be the program you are in, buy more points now while you know you can. Also make clear to anyone at Disney who will listen you are not interested in a "points trust", but want deeded access to a specific resort.

I can definitely see it being a new thing to explore in 2042.

But, what are you seeing in the DVC membership or DVC resort agreement that I am missing that would allow this change to happen for the current resorts.

 

[ziravan]

I can definitely see it being a new thing to explore in 2042.

But, what are you seeing in the DVC membership or DVC resort agreement that I am missing that would allow this change to happen for the current resorts.

You’re missing that’s it’s just a novel way to use a whole lot of points without changing the system as a whole.

For the current owners, there is no functional change in your ownership and so, your POS isn’t being altered in any significant way. DVC likely doesn’t need your approval to make changes that don’t affect you.

Wyndham does this because it allowed them to start taking back points nobody wanted and then repackage them to sell. Now Wyndham doesn’t “buy” back points, but if you want out of their timeshare they’ll now typically let you surrender them and this is how they resale them.

My guess is that DVC will use it to stop selling sold out resorts. You can either buy the resorts on sale now, or access points if you want access to the older resorts at 11 months. And then they can play with ROFR to enforce their vision.

 

[ziravan]

One of the things they COULD do is to give the access points a single 9 month window and let all the access points be good at all resorts at 9 months. Home resort owners still get their at least 1 month advantage and then DVC doesn’t need to care about the mix of their trust points.

But this would really screw with the 7 month window. It would take any possible premium resort out of play before the 7 month window opens, leaving SAP to be the older and larger resorts: SSR, OKW, AKV.

DVC has made current owners no real promises about the 7 month window (it’s there but no promise anything decent would actually be available) so while that sucks, it probably doesn’t break any commitments.

It will though, bring new meaning to “buy where you want to stay.”

 

[Sandisw]

You’re missing that’s it’s just a novel way to use a whole lot of points without changing the system as a whole.

For the current owners, there is no functional change in your ownership and so, your POS isn’t being altered in any significant way.

Wyndham does this because it allowed them to start taking back points nobody wanted and then repackage them to sell. Now Wyndham doesn’t “buy” back points, but if you want out of their timeshare they’ll now typically let you surrender them and this is how they resale them.

My guess is that DVC will use it to stop selling sold out resorts. You can either buy the resorts on sale now, or access points if you want access to the older resorts at 11 months. And the. They can play with ROFR to enforce their vision.

Okay, but points aren’t anything more than a way to represent a fractional ownership interest in a resort.

Not trying to be difficult but how can you sell someone a fractional part of a resort without selling them a part of a specific unit?

Maybe that is what I am missing…DVD wouldn’t be selling you anything because they remain owners of the points. Bacislly selling you OTU points to use each year.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

Not trying to be difficult but how can you sell someone a fractional part of a resort without selling them a part of a specific unit?

Maybe that is what I am missing…DVD wouldn’t be selling you anything because they remain owners of the points. Bacislly selling you OTU points to use.

They’re not selling you a fractional ownership in a resort under this model. CWA and similar programs in other systems are not deeded. They are trusts, the trusts own points. You don’t own the points directly, the trust does. It’s kind of like they’re selling you OTU I guess, except you are paying upfront to get X number of OTU points each year in the trust. Those trust points can in turn be used to pay the trust to use trust-owned DVC points to book the rooms.

The other survey question about “no priority” actually leads me to believe they may be considering a product that can only book at 7 months, or maybe something between 7 and 11 months as discussed above. Both products would have value if priced appropriately, especially on the resale market as more resorts are resale-restricted.

 

[ziravan]

Okay, but points aren’t anything more than a way to represent a fractional ownership interest in a resort.

Not trying to be difficult but how can you sell someone a fractional part of a resort without selling them a part of a specific unit?

Maybe that is what I am missing…DVD wouldn’t be selling you anything because they remain owners of the points. Bacislly selling you OTU points to use each year.

Basically selling you a points-for-points right to rent from them from their pool of points.

 

[ziravan]

The other novel thing about buying into the pool is that your right will probably be for exactly 50 yrs, tied to your UY - and those will still exist for these points cause that’s how dues are figured.

Right now, the length of contract is tied to start date of resort, but that won’t matter with a trust right to use. So length of contract would be tied to start of everyone’s individual contract.

DVC could even get cute and sell 5-yr plans, 10-yr plans, etc. Hell, finance a 10-yr plan for 10-yrs at a cheaper price today, and we’ll be here with another 10-yr finance plan in 10 yrs. See ya real soon!

This would be amazing for their finance program because who cares if someone stops paying. Rack them up and sell em again. Used car lot mentality: if I repo, all I’m doing is taking back your equity as the car goes right back out of the lot again.

They could also - and probably should - not allow access points to be resold (because they wouldn’t be deeded right) but instead, offer a set surrender amount that they’ll pay to buy them back, say, purchase for $20/pt, surrender at $10 for every outstanding point left in contract.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

DVC could even get cute and sell 5-yr plans, 10-yr plans, etc. Hell, finance a 10-yr plan for 10-yrs at a cheaper price today, and we’ll be here with another 10-yr finance plan in 10 yrs. See ya real soon!

I think you just described how most of the Mexican timeshares work. Those are an absolutely terrible deal though, I hope DVC doesn’t go in that direction.

 

[ziravan]

To clarify if DVC used a trust system, they would be in a different booking engine than deeded owners.

Those would be fire-walled off. Or if you have any understanding of cryptocurrency, the trust system would be an L2 system overlaid on the underlying L1 deeded booking engine.

What I mean is say the trust owns 20% of AKV. Those 20% of points are in a different pool of points than the other, deeded owners.

Those points would be segregated from each other, only touching by availability. Both sets of points could vie to book AKV concierge at the 11 month window, but the trust could still only ever have access to 20% of total resort points at 11 months.

And so, trust owners would, by necessity, see different availability than home resort owners. Once they reached the 20% capacity within the trust, the trust would start showing nothing available while the owners of the 80% in the deeded pool would still be looking at a much larger availability pool.

 

[DougEMG]

I would think this kind of system is going to make a lot of people that buy into it very unhappy when they can't book in the priority window at the high demand resorts because the trust has already used up all the points the trust owns at those resort. Most of the points are going to come from the larger resorts like SSR, AKV and OKW not exactly resorts that you would consider high priority for booking at 11 months.

Essentially all you are doing is agreeing to rent points from Disney for the next X number of years for whatever resorts Disney happens to own points at, kind of like a long term lease!

The only way this would make sense to buy is if the price was a lot cheaper then owning at a home resort and if you didn't care which resort you stayed at, meaning you better love SSR.

 

[Cfabar1]

I would think this kind of system is going to make a lot of people that buy into it very unhappy when they can't book in the priority window at the high demand resorts because the trust has already used up all the points the trust owns at those resort. Most of the points are going to come from the larger resorts like SSR, AKV and OKW not exactly resorts that you would consider high priority for booking at 11 months.

Essentially all you are doing is agreeing to rent points from Disney for the next X number of years for whatever resorts Disney happens to own points at, kind of like a long term lease!

The only way this would make sense to buy is if the price was a lot cheaper then owning at a home resort and if you didn't care which resort you stayed at, meaning you better love SSR.

A few things:

Let me start by saying, I am not in favor of this change.

However, Disney could allow in some sort of fashion for the two systems to talk with each other as an "exchange", maybe say at 6 months or something to that effect. The points could even have a conversion ratio or some such thing between them if they wanted, and possibly charge a fee to transfer between them.

Disney could get aggressive with ROFR to help build this out, I also don't think it is a coincidence we are hearing about this possible change now when there are several in demand properties (RIV, VDH, Poly2) that are coming down the short term pipeline.

Disney will not adjust the rights of current owners, they will stay in their unit and have that assigned. My guess is they would even keep the existing 11 and 7 month windows for us and not change our experience too much. However, we may find that it is tougher to transfer into newer resorts.

If they move to a trust program, I think the odds of owning VB and HHI post 2042 improve. They can bundle the dues for all the resorts. That's a big issue to me - whoever owns the trust points has to pay MF (prorated) for all the resorts, and not where they want to own.

If this change happens, resale points with restrictions are going to become worth a lot less. Even original resorts would likely see their resale values plummet I fear. Maybe DVC would even push a point washing scheme or two to persuade existing owners to move their points into the trust.

I'm hoping the VGF waitlist arrives soon....

 

[gisele2]

I undesrstand that the trust owns at every resort. That it can have 11 months priority at for a the exact amont of points owned at that resort. But the the owner of trust points could try to reserve a room no longer available because the ran out of a specific hotel points? How does it work?

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

But the the owner of trust points could try to reserve a room no longer available because the ran out of a specific hotel points?

The owner of trust points could not, they would see no 11 month availability for a resort if the trust has used all its points for that resort for that use year. They could, however, still book the resort at 7 months.

I would bet the trust would have a system of allocating points monthly or something like that so that it doesn’t run out of 11 month points for an entire use year in the first month of that use year every year.

 

[gisele2]

The owner of trust points could not, they would see no 11 month availability for a resort if the trust has used all its points for that resort for that use year. They could, however, still book the resort at 7 months.

I would bet the trust would have a system of allocating points monthly or something like that so that it doesn’t run out of 11 month points for an entire use year in the first month of that use year every year.

That makes sense, thank you for the explanation.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that (and this is my synopsis of it) "since it adds no new points to the system, it won't make any difference for 11 month booking at your home resort."

As a matter of fact, I strongly disagree with that assessment. Why? Because currently, at most resorts; I suspect only a relatively small percentage of points in play are actually used at 11 months for booking. I suspect that all of these points will be used to book at 11 months, so yes. It would make a difference, IMO. Probably a substantial difference.

 

[Matty B13]

As long as DVC didn't pull units equaling the 20% out of the 11 month priority booking window for current owners of the resorts, then I really don't see a huge problem for owners. Except the people who wait till just before 7 months to book a room. But why would anyone want to buy into this system if you wanted VGF or Poly or any of the high demand resorts? It would have to be significantly cheaper to buy into, if you "might" get a change at a high demand resort at 9 months. Seems to be driving down the price of points, than raise them.

 

[sndral]

I’m not really interested in this 11 month trust idea, but I’d sure love more club level options!!

I’ve owned at AKV for a decade & have yet to stay in one of the club level villas. I do, however, dutifully pay MFs every year & have long wondered if my AKV MF’s are so high not so much because of the care & feeding of the animals, but because of the care & feeding of the humans staying concierge .
Seriously, as someone who has no interest in a concierge stay, I’m not interested in seeing MFs increased to fund a club access type system at existing resorts - new resorts, such as Poly 2 - ok, those interested can buy there knowing they’ll be subsidizing concierge via MFs whether they have access to it or not every trip.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

As long as DVC didn't pull units equaling the 20% out of the 11 month priority booking window for current owners of the resorts, then I really don't see a huge problem for owners. Except the people who wait till just before 7 months to book a room. But why would anyone want to buy into this system if you wanted VGF or Poly or any of the high demand resorts? It would have to be significantly cheaper to buy into, if you "might" get a change at a high demand resort at 9 months. Seems to be driving down the price of points, than raise them.

As far as direct purchasers, these systems work well for unsophisticated buyers. “You can book at EVERY RESORT!!!!” Without explaining how limited the availability will be at the in-demand resorts. It’s similar to how they were pushing AKV using the impossible to book value rooms. The only reason to buy it directly if you understand the system is if you intend to resell it one day and are worried that resorts with resale restrictions aren’t going to be worth much on the resale market. And on that note:

It will be a great product to purchase resale, especially as more and more individual deeded resorts are restricted. In fact, if this product exists on the resale market, it will probably drive down the resale price of the newer, restricted resorts. That is, of course, win-win-win for Disney, because then they get to ROFR points at those resorts for super cheap, and resell them directly as part of the new product.

 

[Sandisw]

A few things:

Let me start by saying, I am not in favor of this change.

However, Disney could allow in some sort of fashion for the two systems to talk with each other as an "exchange", maybe say at 6 months or something to that effect. The points could even have a conversion ratio or some such thing between them if they wanted, and possibly charge a fee to transfer between them.

Disney could get aggressive with ROFR to help build this out, I also don't think it is a coincidence we are hearing about this possible change now when there are several in demand properties (RIV, VDH, Poly2) that are coming down the short term pipeline.

Disney will not adjust the rights of current owners, they will stay in their unit and have that assigned. My guess is they would even keep the existing 11 and 7 month windows for us and not change our experience too much. However, we may find that it is tougher to transfer into newer resorts.

If they move to a trust program, I think the odds of owning VB and HHI post 2042 improve. They can bundle the dues for all the resorts. That's a big issue to me - whoever owns the trust points has to pay MF (prorated) for all the resorts, and not where they want to own.

If this change happens, resale points with restrictions are going to become worth a lot less. Even original resorts would likely see their resale values plummet I fear. Maybe DVC would even push a point washing scheme or two to persuade existing owners to move their points into the trust.

I'm hoping the VGF waitlist arrives soon....

While I better understand the premise now, the rules for the use of points is based on ownership at the resort, whether it’s a deeded owner or a trust by DVD owning the points

The POS is written to treat all home resort points the same and the exchange rules are set by resort.

So, if the trust owns points at all the resorts, its renters can only have access to the resort or the exchanges to other resorts the same way a deeded owner has.

Basically, the trust is one big deeded owner. So, they can’t have a different booking window for trust owned points than indovusl owners with deeded points since those are set in the current POS

Owners are guaranteed the one month only, but I don’t see them reducing that for a system like this for current resorts

They can’t have a different exchange period either for trust points and deeded points because the resort itself enters BVTC with those rules.

As a deeded owner, if I have a 4 month period to the resort, then no other points at any other resort, even trust owned points, can be used there until my period ends,

If my exchange to another resort is 7 months, then the trust points must have that same exchange period for its points.

Who uses and books those points doesn’t matter because they are technically no more than a renter.

I still think that this survey question may be someone getting info for what might happen down the line when resorts expire, no a way to upend the current system, and may be nothing either.

Any attempt to create a trust with current resort owned points to then have those points function under different booking timelines than a deeded owner would require change to the POS since it clearly states that DVD must follow the same booking guidelines for the points it owns as everyone else.

And I imagine thst type of POS change would require a majority vote of owners at the resort.