DVC Club Level and Home Resort Survey

[AnnaKristoff2013]

I’ve owned at AKV for a decade & have yet to stay in one of the club level villas. I do, however, dutifully pay MFs every year & have long wondered if my AKV MF’s are so high not so much because of the care & feeding of the animals, but because of the care & feeding of the humans staying concierge .
Seriously, as someone who has no interest in a concierge stay, I’m not interested in seeing MFs increased to fund a club access type system at existing resorts - new resorts, such as Poly 2 - ok, those interested can buy there knowing they’ll be subsidizing concierge via MFs whether they have access to it or not every trip.

I legitimately don’t understand the appeal of Club Access? Other than a lounge with free finger foods, what do you actually get?

 

[ljmiii]

I legitimately don’t understand the appeal of Club Access? Other than a lounge with free finger foods, what do you actually get?

Once upon a time it gave you access to 90 day fastpasses. The concierge service also gave you early access to tours and special events such as the Keys to the Kingdom tour - I don't know if that is still true.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

Once upon a time it gave you access to 90 day fastpasses. The concierge service also gave you early access to tours and special events such as the Keys to the Kingdom tour - I don't know if that is still true.

For some kind of fast pass benefit I get it, but that doesn’t exist anymore. Early access to up charge events (that you could probably get using the hotel booking window) and free finger foods just doesn’t seem like it’s worth a point premium to me. It would be one thing if the rooms were nicer, but they’re the same rooms…

 

[Sandisw]

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that (and this is my synopsis of it) "since it adds no new points to the system, it won't make any difference for 11 month booking at your home resort."

As a matter of fact, I strongly disagree with that assessment. Why? Because currently, at most resorts; I suspect only a relatively small percentage of points in play are actually used at 11 months for booking. I suspect that all of these points will be used to book at 11 months, so yes. It would make a difference, IMO. Probably a substantial difference.

I think this would be a concern. Right now, each membership that holds points can go in an try for a room at 11 months, but you can’t book more than one at a time.

Even if I own points at the same resort in different membership, I can’t combine them without a transfer.

If you have a membership or multiple ones owned by a points trust, and now give access foe booking multiple rooms at the same time from those who bought the right to use the points, you are giving different rules to those points for booking than the normal deeded owner.

It’s why I don’t see this being feasible, easy, or even completely within the way the timeshare for sale of the resort was set up legally.

Now, maybe they could decide to not declare the rest of RIV, and then change the nature of sales for that, the FW cabins and Poly tower to be a non specific timeshare plan. Then set up the rules foe exchanges with BVTC for those new resorts in any manner they want that fits for those resorts to trade with current DVC resorts,

But, they can’t give themselves…or a trust…new and different rules for using their deeded points since the current resoets are component sites sold as deeded properties, and FL timeshare law does require that all the rules for owners to use their home resort property to be the same.

 

[Cfabar1]

Now, maybe they could decide to not declare the rest of RIV, and then change the nature of sales for that, the FW cabins and Poly tower to be a non specific timeshare plan. Then set up the rules foe exchanges with BVTC for those new resorts in any manner they want that fits for those resorts to trade with current DVC resorts,

But, they can’t give themselves…or a trust…new and different rules for using their deeded points since the current resoets are component sites sold as deeded properties, and FL timeshare law does require that all the rules for owners to use their home resort property to be the same.

This could be the way it goes. Very well summarized.

And then have an exchange with BVTC that begins at 7 months or 6 months or whatever.

 

[Boardwalk Tigger]

I was excited for more benefits at first ……. Then I realized that they want to charge more at my resort for views that I can now get for free. I think it’s just a way to charge more money for things I have. The idea of a club room is nice but I'm Not happy about the possible change of opening up my report to others at 11 months. Places like the Beach Club are too small
For that and home resort people would certainly be shut out

 

[Cfabar1]

I guess I just can’t wrap my head around club level at DVC.

We love staying club level when staying at a resort when being in the room, pool etc. is a big part of the allure.

For us when we go to WDW we are there to explore and look around the parks Disney Sprungs etc. I’d feel I’m missing out if I don’t go to the services most of which, other than breakfast would limit other choices of how to spend the day.

Maybe a short hotel stay only this could be appealing. Or if there was a way to have it for one or two nights only as an upgrade charge. I’m thinking first or last night stay without having to Change rooms.

 

[ziravan]

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that (and this is my synopsis of it) "since it adds no new points to the system, it won't make any difference for 11 month booking at your home resort."

As a matter of fact, I strongly disagree with that assessment. Why? Because currently, at most resorts; I suspect only a relatively small percentage of points in play are actually used at 11 months for booking. I suspect that all of these points will be used to book at 11 months, so yes. It would make a difference, IMO. Probably a substantial difference.

Completely agree and it would double or triple demand for the current walkable reservations.

But those would be changes to use patterns and not the POS.

Whether caused by DVC or not, you weren’t promised that booking patterns wouldn’t change over time.

 

[TinkB278]

I’ve owned at AKV for a decade & have yet to stay in one of the club level villas. I do, however, dutifully pay MFs every year & have long wondered if my AKV MF’s are so high not so much because of the care & feeding of the animals, but because of the care & feeding of the humans staying concierge .
Seriously, as someone who has no interest in a concierge stay, I’m not interested in seeing MFs increased to fund a club access type system at existing resorts - new resorts, such as Poly 2 - ok, those interested can buy there knowing they’ll be subsidizing concierge via MFs whether they have access to it or not every trip.

I own AKL and love having access to club! I’m not sure if they actually use maintenance fees to fund club but if they did wouldn’t it make sense and be fair and those rooms don’t have a special view or anything and cost a significant number more points (thus more maintenance fees are paid, which then can be used to fund the club services).

 

[Sandisw]

Completely agree and it would double or triple demand for the current walkable reservations.

But those would be changes to use patterns and not the POS.

Whether caused by DVC or not, you weren’t promised that booking patterns wouldn’t change over time.

As long as those changes in booking patterns are not created by DvD giving themselves the ability to have their own points used differently for home resort bookings.

 

[DougEMG]

I'm not sure I agree with the premise that (and this is my synopsis of it) "since it adds no new points to the system, it won't make any difference for 11 month booking at your home resort."

As a matter of fact, I strongly disagree with that assessment. Why? Because currently, at most resorts; I suspect only a relatively small percentage of points in play are actually used at 11 months for booking. I suspect that all of these points will be used to book at 11 months, so yes. It would make a difference, IMO. Probably a substantial difference.

Totally agree that 11 month window booking will become that much busier. For example a current VGF for 100 points is owner by a single person, so there is only 1 chance that they want to book at 11 months. 100 points in a trust with 10 owners, now there a 10 potential trust owners that want to book at VGF at 11 months. Still the same 100 points can be used but more potential that 1 person wants an 11 month booking.

The other issue I see with this is that the dues are going to be an average of everything the trust owns, meaning not the lowest out there. So, you are really getting SAP style points (cause most people will be stuck in SSR, OKW and AKV) but paying higher dues than SSR, maybe a lot higher if they have a lot of VB or Aluani points.

This system would really be a way for Disney to package undesirable resorts into package and sell it as getting access to something else. Makes me think of what causes the financial crisis when crappy mortgages where bundles together and then magically were supposed to be great.

 

[ziravan]

Totally agree that 11 month window booking will become that much busier. For example a current VGF for 100 points is owner by a single person, so there is only 1 chance that they want to book at 11 months. 100 points in a trust with 10 owners, now there a 10 potential trust owners that want to book at VGF at 11 months. Still the same 100 points can be used but more potential that 1 person wants an 11 month booking.

The other issue I see with this is that the dues are going to be an average of everything the trust owns, meaning not the lowest out there. So, you are really getting SAP style points (cause most people will be stuck in SSR, OKW and AKV) but paying higher dues than SSR, maybe a lot higher if they have a lot of VB or Aluani points.

This system would really be a way for Disney to package undesirable resorts into package and sell it as getting access to something else. Makes me think of what causes the financial crisis when crappy mortgages where bundles together and then magically were supposed to be great.

This was exactly why Wyndham started their program - to repackage unwanted points and put a shine on them.

 

[Sandisw]

This was exactly why Wyndham started their program - to repackage unwanted points and put a shine on them.

And why I can see DVC moving that way in 2042...what better way to turn all those resorts into a non specific timeshare plan and just sell RTU access to all the resorts...DVD will own them, and can repackage them nicely, until the renovate and change them.

I can definitely see them expanding the program with OKW especially. I do think that the language they put in the RIV POS about restrictions and options they have down the road was also set up for an exchange type system like this. Resale RIV points are good only at RIV, but owners will be allowed to exchange them for DVC owned points at 7 months for a fee for the other resorts....

 

[dioxide45]

But, what DVC can’t do is change the nature of the current POS in such a way that some owners have specific deeded rights to a resort and units and others do not because it was not set up to be that way.

There would be no changes needed to the POS for each resort in the trust. I don't think you fully understand the mechanics of how these types of trusts operate. The trust "buys" up a whole bunch of DVC points, deeded weeks or whole units. The trust then sells interests of itself to buyers. These interests are in the same denomination as DVC points. So the trust owns a million points and they can sell ownership interests out to new owners up to amount of points the trust owns. So when a person buys trust points, they own points in that trust that give them a right to make a reservation at a resort owned my the trust up to the abound of points they own. Ownership interests in the trust are a deeded ownership also recorded with the county recorder.

The trust is bound to the POS of its ownership in each resort. The trust then has its own POS that are the rules for the owners in the trust.

 

[Sandisw]

There would be no changes needed to the POS for each resort in the trust. I don't think you fully understand the mechanics of how these types of trusts operate. The trust "buys" up a whole bunch of DVC points, deeded weeks or whole units. The trust then sells interests of itself to buyers. These interests are in the same denomination as DVC points. So the trust owns a million points and they can sell ownership interests out to new owners up to amount of points the trust owns. So when a person buys trust points, they own points in that trust that give them a right to make a reservation at a resort owned my the trust up to the abound of points they own. Ownership interests in the trust are a deeded ownership also recorded with the county recorder.

The trust is bound to the POS of its ownership in each resort. The trust then has its own POS that are the rules for the owners in the trust.

I better understand it now. However, what DVD can’t do is set up a trust and sell peoole the right to use the points in the trust and change the nature of that membership, memberships, so more owners are using those points than any other owners ability.

For example, if, as a deeded owner, I only have the ability to book one reservation at a time using the points I own, they can’t now set up a situation that allows multiple people to go in and try doe a reservation at the same time to book those rooms. That gives the trust membership a different set of rules.

I have multiple memberships with VGF and RIC , but I can’t book and combine those points together. I can’t book more than one room at a time. No one else can sign on to my membership and book a room at the same time either, up to what I own.

That is why setting up a trust, based on how they work as a non specific timeshare, can be in direct conflict with how the current DVC resorts are set up because anyone who owns the trust would get access to book all the rooms at the same time, meaning the trust booking engine is not the same…and the current POS says that DVD…which would be the trust as well…can’t have different rules for use.

Any POS for the trust would need to be in congruence with the POS of each individual resort as well…

As you say, they can’t sell the deeded ownership to the actual units to other people, so the trust would be no different than a deeded owners, just larger. But they can certainly take prepayments for rentals and using their points that a trust owns…nothing wrong about that.

Of course, with the exception of RIV and AUL, all the current resorts are sold out to an extent that this type of change wouldn’t even be feasible since the number of points out there for DVD to own is small…and I still believe that it is something that can’t be done without the risk of violating the current POS, not to mention that the properties were approved and sold as component sites in a specific timeshare plan.

 

[dioxide45]

For example, if, as a deeded owner, I only have the ability to book one reservation at a time using the points I own, they can’t now set up a situation that allows multiple people to go in and try doe a reservation at the same time to book those rooms. That gives the trust membership a different set of rules.

But a trust owner would still have the same rights as a deeded owner. They can only make a reservation at a resort the trust owns and the trust can only dole out reservations up to the limit of the amount of points the trust owns at that resort. So if the trust owns 50,000 points at RIV, once trust owners have made reservations worth 50,000 at RIV, they can't make anymore. At least not until 7 months when the Exchange Company kicks in. It is still no different than a single person owning points at multiple resorts. Or perhaps even an owner who has their points in a living trust. They can only reserve what their trust owns. The only difference here is that the trust is a land trust.

Currently, multiple people are making reservations at the same time at the same resort. I don't see how adding a layer of a trust changes anything. The trust owns points and would have the right to make reservations using those points. New points aren't being added to the system.

Many timeshare systems created a trust based products after the bulk of their resorts were sold out. Early in those systems, only resorts where the trust owned a lot of inventory had easy availablity for trust owners. However, over time, the trust would slowly acquire inventory at those sold out resorts. ROFR and foreclosures being the driving forces behind that.

 

[Sandisw]

But a trust owner would still have the same rights as a deeded owner. They can only make a reservation at a resort the trust owns and the trust can only dole out reservations up to the limit of the amount of points the trust owns at that resort. So if the trust owns 50,000 points at RIV, once trust owners have made reservations worth 50,000 at RIV, they can't make anymore. At least not until 7 months when the Exchange Company kicks in. It is still no different than a single person owning points at multiple resorts. Or perhaps even an owner who has their points in a living trust. They can only reserve what their trust owns. The only difference here is that the trust is a land trust.

Currently, multiple people are making reservations at the same time at the same resort. I don't see how adding a layer of a trust changes anything. The trust owns points and would have the right to make reservations using those points. New points aren't being added to the system.

Many timeshare systems created a trust based products after the bulk of their resorts were sold out. Early in those systems, only resorts where the trust owned a lot of inventory had easy availablity for trust owners. However, over time, the trust would slowly acquire inventory at those sold out resorts. ROFR and foreclosures being the driving forces behind that.

The point though is only the owner of the deeded interest can make reservations, per the contract, at the home resort based on what our current POS says.

If the trust owners don’t actually own at the resort, then they can’t have the same rights as me.

And, if I can’t allow multiple people book rooms on my membership at one time…which I can’t…then the trust can’t give access to multiple trust owners to use their points at the same time to secure rooms. It means one owner has a different set of rules than another.

I get that once they use up the points they can’t book…but the current system is not a non specific timeshare plan and any attempt to change some of the resort to it, still needs to follow the rules set up.

Like now, DVD is required to follow the same rules as I do when the 11 month window opens. If they have 5000 points, they can’t go in at 8 am and reserve inventory at 8 am with all 5000 points when I have to do it as one reservation at a time.

I certainly get that DVD may want to switch the type of timeshare plan they own.

But, they still can’t just make changes to the way they offer people the right to use their own points, whether put into a trust or. It.

The big piece that could be different for Wyndham is that were set up differently from the start or had different guidelines that allowed them to transition unwanted points that were deeded into a trust.

I just don’t believe they would be able to do this for current resorts in a manner that is easy or with changes to the POS that would require an owners vote.

It’s okay that we differ on what DVd could do within the current way things are set up

 

[Genie+]

Points coming up about trusts overlap with the advantages related to commercial renting. Is DVD setting themselves up to step in as they utilize legal grounds to hamper the disallowed commercial renting. They can play both ends, squish it out and recapture those profits. Plus solve some other pending issues down the road.

 

[ziravan]

But a trust owner would still have the same rights as a deeded owner. They can only make a reservation at a resort the trust owns and the trust can only dole out reservations up to the limit of the amount of points the trust owns at that resort. So if the trust owns 50,000 points at RIV, once trust owners have made reservations worth 50,000 at RIV, they can't make anymore. At least not until 7 months when the Exchange Company kicks in. It is still no different than a single person owning points at multiple resorts. Or perhaps even an owner who has their points in a living trust. They can only reserve what their trust owns. The only difference here is that the trust is a land trust.

Currently, multiple people are making reservations at the same time at the same resort. I don't see how adding a layer of a trust changes anything. The trust owns points and would have the right to make reservations using those points. New points aren't being added to the system.

Many timeshare systems created a trust based products after the bulk of their resorts were sold out. Early in those systems, only resorts where the trust owned a lot of inventory had easy availablity for trust owners. However, over time, the trust would slowly acquire inventory at those sold out resorts. ROFR and foreclosures being the driving forces behind that.

I’m gonna take a stab at what Sandisw is saying.

The trust has a million points spread across the resorts. 100,000 of those points are at AKV. At the 11 months window, for deeded owners and 100,000 AKV points, a maximum of 1000 owners could try to book a 100 pt Concierge trip. (All numbers for simplicity sake).

So. However the pool of points is constructed, it cannot let 10,000 owners attempt to book that concierge room (the maximum amounts 1M/100 pt trip.)

If more than 1,000 trust owners are all up in the AKV booking window at 8am, 11months out, DVC has changed the POS for the trust members.

So the trust would have to figure out how to both limit the number of its members at AKV at 11 months AND allow them a mechanism to equally (but not at an advantage) compete for the always walked room.

Those two goals will work against each other.

 

[Cfabar1]

Easiest way to do this would be to have two different systems

LEGACY DVC
and
NEW DVC for the new properties, undeclared RIV, etc.

and at 6 months you can exchange between the two systems. Anything undeclared or that doesn’t exist hasn’t joined the BVTC, and wouldn’t be under the POS.

After 2042, you could plop everything into the new system as well.

That would circumvent the issue presented by @Sandisw

I still believe that they must have a way they could transfer the points from the previous system into the new system, but perhaps there is not a way to do so. It would be up to lawyers to decide.