Kind of OT, but Kind of Not

[Had2stopLurking]

Moderators, if you feel this is OT, please delete the thread rather than send it to the wolves on the community board, haha.

We have friends that have 2 daughters, one is 8, the other is 4. We have taken the 8 year old to DL with us 3 times this past year (we paid for her flights, hotel, food, AP, ect).

The 8 year old is a great student and well behaved child. The 4 year old is, well, spoiled beyond belief. It's like night and day between the two of them. I frequently take both of them overnight on the weekends to stay at our house and the 4 year old is a TERROR and cries when it's her bedtime because I refuse to giver her a sippie cup of milk to comfort her like she gets at home. Please keep in mind, this child has had 4 teeth pulled due to rotting from sour milk, and I refuse to participate in that. The mother is on board with my stance, but the father is not. He thinks if she wants it and will make her stop crying, then give it to her.

Anyway, to make a long story relatively short, we want to take the 8 year old to Disney again twice this year with us (we go more often, but enjoy her company completely and love taking her with us when it's possible). The father has said if we don't take both, then we can't take the older one.

I personally don't think that's fair to the older one nor to us. I can't imagine being 1000 miles from home and having the younger one having a breakdown at Disney. The older one had a breakdown ONCE in three trips (about 4 nights each time) and that was OUR fault for allowing her to eat fruit for breakfast, mac and cheese for lunch, and pizza for dinner (so basically all carbs) and it triggered a migraine in her. Needless to say, we learned to make sure she ate a lot of proteins in her diet the next few days and it was fine, haha.

We have promised to take the younger one in a few years if she can adjust her behavior, but, right now with the way she behaves, it doesn't look promising. Please don't think that I don't love the younger one just as much; as that is NOT the case. We try to take the younger one by herself without the older one to do stuff around here, but, just not on a trip to Disney.

I guess I just wonder what others would do? The mother and I already promised the older one trips this year for good grades/behavior, ect. Now we're at a loss. I feel like we're punishing the older one for the behavior of her sister if we don't take her. Ugh.

 

[gethane]

Once a child is old enough (and 4 is) to understand that they are not getting something that their sibling is, you (general you) are setting up a recipe for disaster in the future. a 4 (or 5 or 6) year old is not able to understand her behavior as problematic and link that to a trip to Disney. Either they both go, or neither go. Unless you link it to some "event" like "Once you turn 5."

I understand your position, but your position and the 8 year olds feelings are not as problematic as what could happen to the 4 year olds reflections of childhood, self esteem, fairness, etc. in the future.

 

[Peace.love.mickey]

Can you set it up like...once you are 8 I will take you too!?!?!

Or...go without them

 

[Had2stopLurking]

Once a child is old enough (and 4 is) to understand that they are not getting something that their sibling is, you (general you) are setting up a recipe for disaster in the future. a 4 (or 5 or 6) year old is not able to understand her behavior as problematic and link that to a trip to Disney. Either they both go, or neither go. Unless you link it to some "event" like "Once you turn 5."

I understand your position, but your position and the 8 year olds feelings are not as problematic as what could happen to the 4 year olds reflections of childhood, self esteem, fairness, etc. in the future.

I completely agree! I have told the younger one that she would be able to go when she's 7 (that's when we took her sister for the 1st time) and at first she was ok with it. She was "fwee" the 1st time we took her sister and she knew she had "fowr" more years before she could go.

Now she's throwing tantrums about it because she doesn't get to go. I find that unacceptable. We take the younger one to do ALOT of stuff that the oldest doesn't get to do in our general area (kiddie ziplining, Chuck E Cheese, ect) and the oldest is ok with that because she knows we do it to make up for the lack of going to Disney.

We try to play down the older one's Disney trips and not really talk too much about them, but the father is the one making the big deal about it.

We've even gone as far as to pay for them to take the younger one to do something special with her while we took the older one with us to Disney. (her father is in construction and right now is not a good time of the year for them financially). We find ways to give them extra cash without making it seem like we were.

I just don't think the "all or nothing" thing is a fair stance. The father knew that we wouldn't take either until they could walk without a stroller and could be away from their parents without breaking down for 4 nights. The youngest can't be three blocks from her mother for even an overnight without breaking down; I can't imagine dealing with that on vacation.

Now the father is changing the rules on a whim. I just don't think that's fair.

 

[aussiegirls]

Personally I think that it is lovely of you to want to take a child with you but honestly, I think that it is just horrible to take one child multiple times whilst the other is always left at home.

I know you say that you take the other one out other places sometimes but it's not Disneyland, and she knows that!!!

If it were my children I would be saying exactly the same thing as the Dad is saying. I would not be allowing someone to take one of my girls to Disneyland at the expense of making the other one feel like crap. At 4 years old she is old enough to understand what is going on. As all small children tend to think that the world revolves around them and that it is all about them, she is likely to see it as her not going is because her sister is somehow "better" or "nicer" than her and that you love the sister more.

Whilst this may not be the case I think you just need to sit down and think about this from the little sisters perspective and not just your own or the big sisters.

So, sorry to have to disagree but I am on the Dad's side with this one.

xxx

 

[NWPrincess]

Hi Had2stopLurking. This is probably not the response that you are looking for and some may disagree, but I just had to speak up on this one. From what you are telling us, it sounds like the father is the problem in this one and that you have voiced your decision (that you will not take both of the children) and he has voiced his (that they either both go or neither go). I know it's not fair to the older girl, but I think you should stand your ground with the decision and put it in his court...but make sure to phrase it in the way others have suggested (that the younger girl can go when she is 7 years old). You are putting a great deal of time and resources into this vacation and it is very nice of you to do for them and it benefits the father too.

So...if I were you, I would stand my ground. You will not be taking the four year old. If the father decides that that is unacceptable than he is the parent and gets to make that decision. If you were to back down now, he would just continue to take advantage of you (sounds like he may be trying to do that already).

Hope this doesn't offend you (or anyone), and realize I don't know all the circumstances surrounding this...just my first glance reaction.

 

[gethane]

Under the circumstances, since she's known for a while that 7 was the magic age (and fair since that's when you took the sibling) then I think its fine to stand your ground. I think linking activities to age is perfectly reasonable. Is the father just trying to get some free babysitting by trying to force you to take the younger?

 

[FlameGirl]

Do the parents pay the way for the kids when they're with you? If so, maybe you can strike a deal with them...you'll take both kids, but if the younger child throws a tantrum while at Disneyland, they'll need to pay for a sitter back at the hotel. That might also be a good bargaining chip with the little one..."you'd better straighten up or you'll have to go back to the room for a nap".

Kids do tend to behave better for other people that aren't their parents though, so maybe if you do take them both she will be a little angel.

Good luck.

 

[gethane]

It is a tricky question. Sorry for you, the bearer of happy disney tripping, to get stuck in the middle.

 

[WebmasterMaryJo]

Hi, since this isn't a Disneyland planning thread, I'm moving it to the DL Community Board (not the other one )

 

[jory29]

I think that the whole experience between taking one well behaved older child and 2 children where one is younger and not as well behaved would be like going from Sleeping Beauty's Castle to Snow White's Scary Adventure!!

Our own 2 children are quite differently behaved - one is more emotional and has a harder time adjusting to changes, the other is a happy-go-lucky type who can roll with the changes. One on one, to take out somewhere, each is pretty darn good. Put them together, and it can quite a bit more challenging, lol. (As is the case with most any children I guess.)

Since you always had maintained that the other could go when she is 7, I would probably choose to maintain the idea to the other child that when she is 7, she can come along with you. I would explain to the parents that this is something you have always made clear to her, and that when she is 7 you will stay true to your word.

In the meantime, it sounds like the father won't budge, so I don't know how this will work out. If you take the little one this time, so as not to go back on your promise to the older girl, even if you explain it might be just this one time until she's 7 years old, then the little girl may expect it every time. (And so might the Father of course, since this is a stipulation that they have implemented now.)

It will put a huge damper on your trip, that's for sure, to take 2, because of the constant monitoring, the worries about meltdowns, etc. Also, there are far more rides for a 7 year old than there are for a 4 year old.

With this being said, you shouldn't have promised her (the older girl) the trip without talking to her folks first though, 1000 miles is a long ways away and just because you've done this before doesn't mean every time will be a yes.)

I also think it should be made very clear to the other girl the reasons why you only want to take girls who are 7 years old and older to Disneyland Parks; it sounds like she doesn't understand, and may only see that you like the older one more. (Her perception. It may need to be made more clear so as for her not to have emotional upset and issues over feeling left out.)

You may like both equally, but sometimes your actions toward the older one speak louder than words. I know from experience, I wish I could make both of my children feel like they both were so well behaved, etc. by my actions and words, but it can be hard when one is behaving in a manner I need to have them change.

This is a very tough situation for you, and I am curious as to what others on these boards will say. Good luck with it all!!

Edited to add: One more thought; sounds like it was always conditional that you would take the 4 year old when she is 7 if she behaves, etc. Though it's good for kids to work toward goals of behaving, this is likely too long term of a goal and is also something that I feel shouldn't be 'conditional' since her sister got to go when she was 7 years old. Perhaps there is a reason behind her poor behavior that makes it more difficult for her to behave, and it would be nice for her simply to no there are no strings other than 'when she is 7.'

 

[aussiegirls]

I agree with your ETA jory. She does say that she has told younger child that she can go when she is 7 IF she is better behaved. So what if she is not better behaved?

Also seeing as they have taken the older 3 times last year and want to take her twice this year so maybe by the time the little one is 7 they might have taken the older one about 12 or so times. Does this mean that the little girl gets to go 12 times too?

OP, I don't know if you are a parent or not but I think you need to look at this from a parents point of view. My youngest is 7 now (so has much more understanding than the 4 year old in your scenario). I could never tell her she had to wait to go to Disneyland until she was 10, and even then it was dependant on whether someone else (not even her parents) deemed her "good" enough, whilst she had to watch her big sister come and go from Disneyland on a regular basis. I could not do this to my child.

So if it were me I would definately be telling you both or none.

xxx

 

[Had2stopLurking]

Thanks for all of the replies!

The thing is, we didn't promise the older one the trips this year until we cleared it with her parents. She even knows that we expect her to volunteer for a day and donate the ticket (approved and appreciated by her mother) before we told her we would take her.

The father is now being a doodie head about it. I think he's frustrated because of his lack of work in his field lately (understandable), and is trying to project his frustration in other ways. He's NEVER been like this before, but all of a sudden, it's all or nothing.

We've known this couple since well before the oldest was born, so it's not like we are just coming into their lives and doing things for them or their kids. We truly enjoy being around them.

Like I said, it's not like we won't take the youngest when she's older (the oldest had to wait), but, the oldest did not talk "baby talk" at 4 (asking for "milky bottle" before bed at 4????).

Thank you for all of your input. I need to sit down with their mother tomorrow or the next day (I just talked to her today to find out when the oldest is out of school in March and April to plan our next trip and it was fine until she called me tonight and told me what the husband had said).

I'm hoping he's just having a frustrated night and will get over it. I would never have promised the oldest trips without her parent's approval. Please don't think that. We discussed this months ago, and it was fine. Tonight, it became an all or nothing situation and now I feel like a terrible person for saying "nothing".

Not sure who asked, but, we pay for all expenses for the child. I've never asked the parents for a dime towards anything for the trips. The mother does watch our pets while we're out of town with her child, but she also has use of our car and we pay her to watch the pets so she has some extra spending money. When we don't take her daughter, we just pay her more to watch the pets. (she comes over once a day to check on the parrot to make sure he has fresh water and makes sure the other pets have fresh water, they don't need to be walked or anything).

Sorry for the long vent. Thanks for all of the input. Please don't think we like the oldest more. We love the youngest just as much, but, we try to do age appropriate things here at home with her without her sister at least once a week. It's frustrating because I've known both children since birth, and I love them both; we just don't want to deal with the breakdowns of the one that is favored by her father while 1000 miles away. We already know the other one doesn't do that, haha.

 

[aussiegirls]

OP, I understand what you are trying to say and I think you are doing a lovely thing. The problem I see is that even though you didn't take the oldest until she was 7, she didn't have someone else coming and going from Disneyland right in her face. So of course it would have not been a problem for her to wait. But the little one is in a completely different situation.

xxxx

 

[Had2stopLurking]

OP, I understand what you are trying to say and I think you are doing a lovely thing. The problem I see is that even though you didn't take the oldest until she was 7, she didn't have someone else coming and going from Disneyland right in her face. So of course it would have not been a problem for her to wait. But the little one is in a completely different situation.

xxxx

I totally see what you mean. TRUST ME, I do. But I also see us taking the youngest to do things like ziplining for kids, Jump Street (a trampoline place that makes me crazy, haha), Estes Park getting our pics taken in old fashioned clothes, playing marathon games of "memory" and "don't break the ice" (you don't know how many times I've had to reset those dang white plastic cubes) (ugh), ect that the oldest isn't a part of. We don't just say "hey, we like this one more, let's take her to Disney"; we try to do age appropriate things for them.

The father holds behavior over the oldest one's head, but not the youngest. We were taking the oldest in October for the Halloween decorations (she had seen xmas and the summer already) and we were all at a party for another mutual friend's child.

The youngest left her pizza plate and empty soda can on the table so I asked her to please put it away where it belonged in the trash. She glared at me and walked away. Well the older one got up, threw hers away and started to go play and the father said "you need to clean up B's stuff". She looked at him and just asked "why" and he said "if you don't stop talking back and do it, you aren't going to Disney with Aunt and Uncle".

I guess I don't understand why it's ok for the youngest to not be held to behavioral standards, but, it's ok to threaten the older one for stuff the younger one does and there are no consequences. He's normally not really stiff on it, but, tonight, he said it was "all or nothing" and I didn't think that was fair since I had already cleared taking her twice this year before I even told her.

I DO have a child, and trust me, she NEVER was punished for behavior of her step siblings/cousins/ect. That worked both ways between my ex and I. We didn't punish one for the behavior of other siblings. (neither of us ever referred to his children from his future marriage as anything but her siblings and got along well)

 

[NWPrincess]

Just had to add that you are an awesome aunt to take either of them to DL all expense paid I'd kill for an aunt like you, even if I did have to wait 3 years until I could go...

 

[jory29]

Oh my goodness! I sincerely apologize, as I thought you had not cleared it with the 7 yr. old's parents prior, but thanks for clarifying, and I am very sorry. Lots of good responses here, the discussion will keep going, and maybe some resolution will be found. Again, best of luck to you!!

 

[Had2stopLurking]

Thank you both Jory and NW! I didn't know how to explain the situation, but it seems like you both understand. It was something that was discussed, talked about, and paid for, and now, it's going to make us look like the bad guy for not following through. I did talk to the mother tonight and she said that the father is having a bad week and not to worry about it. Then he called us and apologized. Looks like all is well, but, it really upset me at the time.

It's just hard because technically I am not their "aunt", I'm just someone who has been friends with their parents since before they were born. They just both refer to me and my husband as "aunt Had2" and "uncle Had2".

It was pretty cute the last time we took the oldest in October, as we always get a notarized letter signed by both of her parents to say it's ok to take their child out of state with us. We give that letter to the TSA person when we check in at security. The TSA person asked her "do you know these people" (since the last name was different for all of us; I kept my maiden name even though I've been married forever, and my husband's name didn't match hers either) and she looks at him and tilted her head and said "um, yeah, that's my aunt and uncle".

She's a pro at going through security at airports now, haha!

Thanks for all of your support everyone! Didn't want you to think I was favoring any of the two. I love them both as if they were my own, but, I'm too old to deal with a breakdown of a 4 year old 1000 miles from home, haha. I definitely do tons more with the younger one when we're home. You should see her on campus trying to help my grade papers. I take old photo copies of things that don't matter and ask her to grade them while I'm looking at other paper (real ones), and give her a red crayon and have her mark them up.

I don't want people to think I don't spend time with the younger one; I just don't think that either of us could do 5 days away from her parents. haha

 

[jory29]

I was really glad it is resolved, and because you had always told the 4 year old you will take her too when she is 7, she should understand, and when the time comes, it will be a very exciting day for her. Sometimes anticipation of an event is part of all of that excitement.

I hope though that the Dad didn't let her know that she 'might' get to go with you - that would be so horrible if the little girl thought there was a chance she could go, [if her Dad had told her, "I told Auntie that she takes both of you or not at all."

 

[dragon300zx]

I'm glad this is all resolved but I honestly don't think it had anything to do originally with the father wanting or expecting you to take the second child.

Seems much more like a self esteem issue seeing as he is having a hard time with work and money and all that. The whole male ego, bread winner, provider thing.

As far as him treating the kids different he needs to get over the "baby of the family" issue or he is gonna have one hell of a time with her when she starts preteen/teens.

Totally a "Him" issue and nothing you could control, its good you stood up for yourselves and didn't let him push you around.