NYT op-ed video on DL living wage

Some no, but maybe some yes. For instance, the US Government takes a big chunk of my salary out for FICA. For the OA (old age) part, i.e., social security, the government is more of less forcibly taking my wages to fund their approved savings account. I have no say in the matter. I would prefer to take my wages and control my saving myself. Now, I could choose to not pay, but what would happen to me then? Well, I'd be put in jail. One definition of government is an entity with the power to force an individual to comply at the threat of force.

As for Social Security (and Medicare), what is really going on isn't that "I'm funding my future savings or medical care" it's more that "I'm funding someone else's savings and medical care with the hope that in the future, another generation will fund mine" (and based on the actuarial models these were built on, those assumptions they had aren't necessarily the way things are now, especially demographically)...

The government isn't forcibly taking anything. You want to live in this country, you have to pay the legal taxes. By the fact you are living here you are stating that you are ok with this general concept. If you aren't ok with the amount, vote in someone who agrees with you and change it.

This may be semantics, but using terms like forcing or confiscating is putting the wrong connotation on the conversation.
 
I mean it is hyperbole. You're stating "confiscating all your wealth". Like what does that even mean? Tax collection is not confiscation.

You brought it up in one of your first factoids about how much wealth the 1% have compared to the rest. I am merely asking how long you could run the govt on that wealth? Doesn't seem like it would be that hard to find the answer.

This isn't a personal argument, it's an economic one. Personal stories don't mean anything when you're dealing with 300 million people. You can't make policy based on one or two happy stories or sad ones. I know you care how you succeed, but I don't. The government doesn't unless you're breaking the law. So if you succeed, good for you. It has no relevance to this discussion.

Sure it is, you want to empower the govt. to tax some folks at a higher rate based on your feelings and your compassion for those in the lower earning brackets. Well caring should go both ways shouldn't it? The majority of people who are in the top 10% have worked hard to get there, now some want to tax their money away in the name of "fairness"



If things keep trending this way, things will get worse. Better get yours now.

DOOM and GLOOM? Sounds like Hyperbole to me.
 
The more in debt the country goes, the worse those factors get until something just slips away.

Just out of curiosity why is the debt out of control? Is it a revenue(tax) problem? Last I saw the govt was collecting record taxe....I mean revenues.

Also this thread has gotten way of topic. Has someone figured out what a livable wage is and how to implement it nationwide? Is the 15$ starting salary for Disney livable in Orlando? Anaheim?
 
Just out of curiosity why is the debt out of control? Is it a revenue(tax) problem? Last I saw the govt was collecting record taxe....I mean revenues.

Also this thread has gotten way of topic. Has someone figured out what a livable wage is and how to implement it nationwide? Is the 15$ starting salary for Disney livable in Orlando? Anaheim?

Depends who you ask - between our "mandated" payouts and out debt interest, by the next year or two, we pretty much use up 100% of the revenue we bring in between mandatory spending before we fund our government.

For example, in the FY 2017 budget, we spent about $945B on Social Security, $597B on Medicare, $643B on Medicaid, and $455B on other welfare/mandated expenses (outside of interest).


So, we spent $2.64T on direct mandated spending (some sites sat $2.5T and some are higher than $2.64T, but it's roughly right there:) and spent another $263B on interest expense for a total of $2.903T already spent before Congress did anything. Since we only brought in $3.32T in tax receipts, there was only $417B to run the ENTIRE government without running a deficit. So, of course, we ran a pretty large deficit. To change that, you need to raise taxes $1T/year, cut entitlements by $1T/year, do some of each, or grow the economy to take in more tax receipts, and/or encourage inflation that reduces the load of the debt and the cost of the entitlements subtlely. No party and really no person has the political will to do any of those things, so we nip around the edges at best. But, we've done that for decades (pretty much since we signed in the entitlement spending without adequately estimating its true costs and loads)...bills are just finally coming due...

PS - Some of our tax receipts are offsetting receipts for the mandatory spending...roughly $200B...so, we could have a few extra years before it is 100% of our tax receipts:)...
 
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The government isn't forcibly taking anything. You want to live in this country, you have to pay the legal taxes. By the fact you are living here you are stating that you are ok with this general concept. If you aren't ok with the amount, vote in someone who agrees with you and change it.

This may be semantics, but using terms like forcing or confiscating is putting the wrong connotation on the conversation.
But it is. I was born in the US, so I am by default a citizen. I could leave, but my guess is, whichever country I go to, I would have to pay taxes there as well or they would toss me in jail.

The fact that we have to have penalties to enforce the collection of taxes is evidence, by it's nature, that it is being done generally against the will of people.

Personally, I wish the federal government would do away with withholding from paychecks. I think that it would open some eyes if everyone was forced to write a check to the government every month...
 
No party and really no person has the political will to do any of those things, so we nip around the edges at best. But, we've done that for decades (pretty much since we signed in the entitlement spending without adequately estimating its true costs and loads)...bills are just finally coming due...

Agree 100%. I've gotten in the habit of writing in the most fiscally responsible(atleast according to their platforms) person in the last few elections. I keep being told I am throwing my vote away but I don't care. It is not a flashy issue like other things are but it is probably the most important one for the future of the country.
 
But it is. I was born in the US, so I am by default a citizen. I could leave, but my guess is, whichever country I go to, I would have to pay taxes there as well or they would toss me in jail.

The fact that we have to have penalties to enforce the collection of taxes is evidence, by it's nature, that it is being done generally against the will of people.

Personally, I wish the federal government would do away with withholding from paychecks. I think that it would open some eyes if everyone was forced to write a check to the government every month...

Agree on all counts but they can never get rid of withholding. These days if you ask someone how much they make per paycheck they will tell you the number on the check after withholding. Its really very clever on the part of the govt.
 


But it is. I was born in the US, so I am by default a citizen. I could leave, but my guess is, whichever country I go to, I would have to pay taxes there as well or they would toss me in jail.

The fact that we have to have penalties to enforce the collection of taxes is evidence, by it's nature, that it is being done generally against the will of people.

Personally, I wish the federal government would do away with withholding from paychecks. I think that it would open some eyes if everyone was forced to write a check to the government every month...

It's kind of a silly argument on my part and yours. No matter where you go, if you want and semblance of a life a first world country provides, you're going to be paying taxes. You should be aware that for a certain cost, you get certain benefits.

Stop paying taxes automatically and it opens up your eyes. Sure. You'll have to write a bunch of checks to a lot of different payroll taxes and retirement funds. People with a better understanding of where their money goes is a good thing. It would actually make a better case for healthcare reform than any politician could. You'd actually see healthcare costs.

Also on the flip side, stop all government services for a week and stop taxing people for the same period and see if they want those services back. Shut off all water, close all highways, no police or fire, no public schools or libraries, etc. etc.
 
It's kind of a silly argument on my part and yours. No matter where you go, if you want and semblance of a life a first world country provides, you're going to be paying taxes. You should be aware that for a certain cost, you get certain benefits.

Stop paying taxes automatically and it opens up your eyes. Sure. You'll have to write a bunch of checks to a lot of different payroll taxes and retirement funds. People with a better understanding of where their money goes is a good thing. It would actually make a better case for healthcare reform than any politician could. You'd actually see healthcare costs.

Also on the flip side, stop all government services for a week and stop taxing people for the same period and see if they want those services back. Shut off all water, close all highways, no police or fire, no public schools or libraries, etc. etc.
I'm not saying all taxes are bad, but there are definitely penalties, and therefore must be taken in threat of force. I'll grant you it's more an argument of semantics, but anyway, I digress...

Plus, I'm all for defense, police, fire, roads (though I am a toll road guy, which in and of itself is a tax, but its a usage tax), etc. We can debate on public schools (which are usually funded locally, not through the federal gov't) :). However, when my FICA is more than my income withholdings for taxes, that says more of my money is going towards the entitlement programs than to actually funding the core functions of government.
 
Also on the flip side, stop all government services for a week and stop taxing people for the same period and see if they want those services back.

Yes please! But only on one condition. Can We decide which govt. "services" we want to add back? We can start with defense and the post office and see how that works. Lets just see how much of the govt. is "essential" line by line

Shut off all water, close all highways, no police or fire, no public schools or libraries, etc. etc.

These are all local. Depending on where you live they could be County or municipal or a mix of both. I am fine with these because they are run by the govt. closest to me not by a bloated bureaucracy 1000 miles away. I know my state rep and have met him a few times(PTA meetings etc.). My US Congressional rep lives in Washington and only visits when he wants my vote.

And again all this is great but have we come up with a solid definition on Livable Wage yet or is it still fluid from individual to individual. If still fluid how will this be rolled out as a federal law. Will the federal law just reference a random java-based calculator on the internet?
 
California Governor Brown just signed legislation to force zero carbon emissions for power generation by 2045.
Will Disneyland be expected to raise wages then for the additional cost of living increases, through electric utility bills, for this new program?
 
California Governor Brown just signed legislation to force zero carbon emissions for power generation by 2045.
Will Disneyland be expected to raise wages then for the additional cost of living increases, through electric utility bills, for this new program?

That depends.... let see what the random java-based "livable wage" calculator has to say on the subject.......
 
California Governor Brown just signed legislation to force zero carbon emissions for power generation by 2045.
Will Disneyland be expected to raise wages then for the additional cost of living increases, through electric utility bills, for this new program?

What an odd question. Cost of living nearly always increases due to steady/low inflation. The world will be a dramatically different place in 25 years.
 
Could you enlighten us as to what he "living/livable wage" is now?

No I couldn't I'm not an economist. Nor have I been close to the poverty line to tell what that may be. You can go and google the loose definition of it or read this thread.
 
You can go and google the loose definition of it or read this thread.

I have, read back in the thread. There are 34 million returns for "what is living wage". No one in this thread, including those demanding it can define it or set a dollar figure on it. There was a random java-based calculator posted at some point but I think we would all be hesitant to make a country wide policy based on that.

EDIT: not clear. I meant 34 million google hits.
 
I have, read back in the thread. There are 34 million returns for "what is living wage". No one in this thread, including those demanding it can define it or set a dollar figure on it. There was a random java-based calculator posted at some point but I think we would all be hesitant to make a country wide policy based on that.

EDIT: not clear. I meant 34 million google hits.

As you may or may not know, there are several layers of government that are all woven together that include a Federal and State government. Inside the State government it's typical broken down from the state to local levels. Yes?

The federal government stipulates a minimum wage. This is not a living wage.
States and local municipalities can also set minimum wage requirements within their jurisdictions. Where the discussion for a living wage typically comes up is on a state and local level because local levels typically know how much is required to survive when working 40 hours a week. You see this a lot in bigger cities.

For example California has a minimum wage of $11.00 and San Fran is $15 I think.

So no one anywhere is proposing to create a living wage federally, but they are discussing raising the minimum wage to something that is more modern. In 1997 the minimum wage was $5.15 (adjusted for inflation is $8.16) and has only rose to $7.25 in the last 20 years. This is the argument most people are discussing for the most part I think.

Now you can make an argument that life is more expensive these days than it was 20 years ago. Just like water, sewage and electricity are necessities in life, some say internet access is also one of those utilities. 20 years ago you didn't have internet so it's an added expense.

Typically, since you're too lazy to click on any links, living wage pays for food, clothing, utilities, transportation and housing at a minimum for you and your family. You can then expand what is necessary in today's society.
 
I was okay with everything you said up to this point. Not sure where it came from but I have appreciated the debate up until that point.

Well, he has a point. It seems like you saw 34 million results and didn't bother to even click on the top few (most relevant) ones to do some reading, choosing instead to keep coming back here and demanding someone define it for you.

There can never be an accurate federal "living wage" unless the government fixes or caps the cost of housing, goods, and services across all states. Since that will never happen, you have states snd cities creating their own legislation that fits the COL in each area.
 
Unfortunately, the side effect of paying a higher minimum wage is always inflation. Economics 101. You start paying everyone $5 more an hour, then the "market can bear a higher price" so prices on consumer goods go up. Sooner rather than later, that $5/hour is actually worth less, and we're back where we started, with workers protesting that they can't afford anything.

Where have you been living? Inflation has skyrocketed while wages have remained stagnant. We are having these issues with needing to jump minimum wage so much because it has not kept up with inflation. 25 years ago when I was out of high school I worked at a grocery store. Minimum wage was $4.25, but after a couple of years and "moving up" I made $9/hour. They were more then able to pay people that back then but sold groceries for much less. I was able to live on my own in a 1 bedroom apartment in a safe part of town and I paid $280/month for rent. Gas was 89 cents a gallon and you could buy a nice brand new car for under $10,000. Now the exact same apartment(25 years older) is $700 a month and people are still being paid $9/hour with companies not wanting to give wage increases. The people who are saying to better yourselves, how are these young people going to do that now? They can barely afford to live and eat let alone pay for college that has over tripled in cost in the last decade. Many of the young people I work with do work 2 jobs but that means that they can not go to school. The only ones that are going to college are the ones that have help from their parents, or have a scholarship. Do the math and see if you could do it now. Imagine you are paid minimum wage, find out how much apartments are in your area, food, gas, insurance, etc and see how well you would do now.
 

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