Will this end up being the pandemic that cried wolf?

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Ask my daughter-in-law, an ER nurse here in suburban Chicago, if we are over reacting. She will give you a big, fat NO.

And she gets one N95 and one surgical mask per 12 hour shift. And told to just wipe her face shield off between patients.

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Even if we assume a death rate of 1% (I think that's the low end of the projections) that's still a lot of people. And while some people are apparently more susceptible to complications from the virus, I don't think anyone can ssume they are safe. There are reports of otherwise healthy people, adults and children, dying from Covid infection. There are even reports of survivors being reinfected! I like that Skittles analogy that was floating around Facebook: if I give you 100 skittles, but one of those skittles would kill you, you probably wouldn't risk eating them. If one person out of 100 infected will die, do you really want to play those odds? I know I don't, not with something that is entirely preventable by simply staying in my house for a few months! I think maybe the people flocking to the Florida beaches don't get that, or think they are somehow immune? Like someone else said, you can't fix stupid.

If the Coronavirus pandemic is similar to the Spanish Flu, we're in for a couple of bad years unless we can solve this thing quick with either a reliable treatment or a vaccine. It's ironic to me that 100 years after the last pandemic we still aren't on top of this kind of thing. All of our advances in science and technology and we're still stuck in our houses hiding from a virus, just like 100 years ago.
 
What is the source of the 0.4% anything I am seeing globally is above 10%

It comes from the Stanford antibody study, which is really the first U.S. attempt to estimate a more accurate denominator rather than relying on "confirmed cases" in a situation where you almost have to be hospitalized to get tested in many places. But it is very preliminary.

The next-best estimate would have to be South Korea's data because they started out testing a wide swath of the population (though they later narrowed it based on contact tracing, so the tested group is still somewhat biased toward confirmed exposures). Their fatality rate is 2%. The higher global rate is largely because most countries are only testing those with symptoms, either because their testing capacity is limited or because they haven't created the infrastructure for population-wide testing in a time when people are being discouraged from leaving their homes.

Based on what I've been hearing from doctors and nurses in New York, Detroit and other hot spots, if anything people aren't frightened enough by this. They're pleading for people to take this virus seriously because they've seen so many people of all ages and health descriptions die from it and there wasn't anything they could do.

Asking medical personnel is always biased toward action, though, because even one horrible case is enough to make an impression on a human level. They inherently encounter the worst possible outcomes of everything and that can skew their perception of the situation as a whole. I know quite a few nurses who think trampolines and backyard pools should be illegal because they've seen injuries and deaths from them that they don't think the potential fun of safe use justifies the risks, and don't even get them started on what they think of gun ownership.

If the Coronavirus pandemic is similar to the Spanish Flu, we're in for a couple of bad years unless we can solve this thing quick with either a reliable treatment or a vaccine. It's ironic to me that 100 years after the last pandemic we still aren't on top of this kind of thing. All of our advances in science and technology and we're still stuck in our houses hiding from a virus, just like 100 years ago.

There's actually a fair bit of evidence that this won't be the same, though. One of the reasons the Spanish flu was as bad as it was for as long as it was is because it was able to get a foothold in previously-unexposed populations with each successive wave because our world was a much less mobile place at the time. The first wave in the U.S. was concentrated around a handful of military bases. The second wave, when our soldiers were starting to come home from war, hit the major cities... and because those cities had few-to-no cases during the first wave, everyone was just as vulnerable to it as they would have been if it had been a never-before-seen virus. It was the third wave that was a genuine rebound like they're worried about with COVID19.

The awful thing about a modern pandemic is how quickly it spreads around the world in an era of global travel, and how quickly it spreads within each country via planes, trains and interstates. But that is also the thing that should make successive waves of this virus less severe than the initial outbreak. Because it is going to have a much harder time finding pockets where no one has been exposed, and even low levels of immunity in the population exert some downward pressure on spread by interrupting the chain of transmission in places. Not enough for containment or control, of course - we know even relatively modest numbers of anti-vaxxers can disrupt herd immunity to measles, particularly because they're often clustered - but enough that second and subsequent introductions are less overwhelming than the first wave.
 
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Ask my daughter-in-law, an ER nurse here in suburban Chicago, if we are over reacting. She will give you a big, fat NO.

And she gets one N95 and one surgical mask per 12 hour shift. And told to just wipe her face shield off between patients.

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I hope your daughter in law, along with all other nurses, doctors, medical staff, and all frontline workers, stays safe and continues to stay healthy. The lack of access to adequate PPE is appalling. These people are putting their lives on the line without the right safety equipment. Would you expect soldiers to go fight wars without the proper equipment?
 
I hope your daughter in law, along with all other nurses, doctors, medical staff, and all frontline workers, stays safe and continues to stay healthy. The lack of access to adequate PPE is appalling. These people are putting their lives on the line without the right safety equipment. Would you expect soldiers to go fight wars without the proper equipment?

Amen!
Praise the Lord and pass a new N95.
 
Brazil is another country to follow.
Led by another very strong critic of shutdowns, he just recently fired the top health official because of differences in opinions of the shutdown. And this happened while the country is continuing to grow both daily new infection and death cases at incredible rates. No sign of flattening in near term looking at their charts.
 
Much like predicting the weather, predicting the death rate for Covid-19 in the beginning was an inexact science. As more data has poured in the death rate has dropped from 10% to perhaps as low as .04%. Still deadly for sure, especially for those with specific contributing factors but significantly less deadly then first reported.
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Watching the people protest against social distancing in many states and seeing people flock to the Florida beaches has me wondering if the next time in the near future there is another potential pandemic will people comply and social distance?

I'm not optimistic. Keep in mind we're all of a whopping 7 weeks into this (US first death was Feb. 28) out of the year or so it will take to run its course and/or develope and distribute a vaccine.

From the beginning even the rather dire predictions were that this bug would have a case fatality rate of 1-3% and a transmission rate of 40 to 70%. We're running a 5% CFR now but that will likely be resolved down to about 0.1-1%, if we would start testing everyone or if we ever get around to universal testing for the antibodies. By the end of it, I will not be surprised to see the death toll at over 100k

The part that gives me pause is that we have the opportunity to push that transmission rate down too and we just won't do it.

I'm not counting on China being altogether transparent here but neither is it the shifty super-villain being portrayed by the political punditry, I've lived and worked there. Just taking the broad strokes of it then, China had their cities locked down within 2 weeks of their first reported death. A month later and they all but stop getting new cases. 76 days and the country is starting to get back to normal. They've had under 100k cases and under 5k deaths. In a country with 1.4 billion people.

A city in Italy, Vo, tested every resident and then ordered positives to self-isolate and they've stopped having new cases.

We know self-isolation works. We could have had the 100k/5k outcome china has, or something closer to it if we had had the political will to make it happen. Instead, we have armed protests in Michigan against what should be the barest minimum of stay-at-home orders and a President that supports the protesters.

Just keep that in mind... we're only 7 weeks into this and we're not doing everything possible to stop this thing from spreading.
 
This virus is a weird thing, I do take it seriously and we have pretty much stayed isolated at home, except for the runs to the store for some groceries and car church on Sunday's which has been my saving grace. All that being said , IF I watch the news I am scared to death , and feel for sure , the virus is coming for all of us as quickly as possible. If I turn off the tv and just live my everyday life, there has only been a handful of people get the virus in my county, and only one death of an over 85 year old nursing home patient. Also it is making people congregate in places that are open, we have to grocery shop at Walmart due to the fact it is the only real grocery store we have in our area, and man let me tell you, it was beyond packed today, so much for social distancing . And Lowes was worse than Walmart, when my husband drove past, there was a full overflowing parking lot , which never ever happens. So I am wondering if was smart to have us all isolated ?? My daughter spoke with a nurse that runs of main local hospital and she said it was very very slow there. So not sure what to make of all of it really???
 
I'm not optimistic. Keep in mind we're all of a whopping 7 weeks into this (US first death was Feb. 28) out of the year or so it will take to run its course and/or develope and distribute a vaccine.

From the beginning even the rather dire predictions were that this bug would have a case fatality rate of 1-3% and a transmission rate of 40 to 70%. We're running a 5% CFR now but that will likely be resolved down to about 0.1-1%, if we would start testing everyone or if we ever get around to universal testing for the antibodies. By the end of it, I will not be surprised to see the death toll at over 100k

The part that gives me pause is that we have the opportunity to push that transmission rate down too and we just won't do it.

I'm not counting on China being altogether transparent here but neither is it the shifty super-villain being portrayed by the political punditry, I've lived and worked there. Just taking the broad strokes of it then, China had their cities locked down within 2 weeks of their first reported death. A month later and they all but stop getting new cases. 76 days and the country is starting to get back to normal. They've had under 100k cases and under 5k deaths. In a country with 1.4 billion people.

A city in Italy, Vo, tested every resident and then ordered positives to self-isolate and they've stopped having new cases.

We know self-isolation works. We could have had the 100k/5k outcome china has, or something closer to it if we had had the political will to make it happen. Instead, we have armed protests in Michigan against what should be the barest minimum of stay-at-home orders and a President that supports the protesters.

Just keep that in mind... we're only 7 weeks into this and we're not doing everything possible to stop this thing from spreading.
 
Sweden's Deaths per 1M Population is in the top ten. Higher than the US. This is like getting swimming lessons from a drowning man.
That was covered in the interview. In theory it should all even out. Social distancing is ultimately just delaying the deaths. Unless we are willing to remain like this until a vaccine is developed, tested, and administered to millions.
 
That was covered in the interview. In theory it should all even out. Social distancing is ultimately just delaying the deaths. Unless we are willing to remain like this until a vaccine is developed, tested, and administered to millions.

No.

Social distancing reduces deaths caused by overwhelmed medical resources. If you keep the number of seriously ill people below the the level the infrastructure can serve, you save lives.

By slowing the spread, social distancing also allows time for additional medical equipment to be developed and spread,. More capacity = more lives saved.

Development, testing of a production of a vaccine would save lives. Development of better treatment protocols could also save lives. But we need to give the people developing both time to work.

Reducing the community spread by social distancing makes management of the outbreaks by a test, trace and isolate strategy a viable way to minimize spread while gradually opening up society. And oh yeah, saving more lives.

M.
 
That was covered in the interview. In theory it should all even out. Social distancing is ultimately just delaying the deaths. Unless we are willing to remain like this until a vaccine is developed, tested, and administered to millions.

I'm surprised how many people don't know/remember this - the aim of flattening the curve was never to prevent every death. It was to prevent the unnecessary deaths that result from overwhelmed medical systems. People will still die of this, whether we keep everything closed or start slowly reopening. There is no getting through this without deaths unless we're willing to isolate far, far, far more than we already are (think porch grocery drop-offs of basic commodities, no going for walks or otherwise leaving your home/property at all - basically what China did) and live that way until a vaccine can be developed, mass produced and distributed. But even in places where medical systems are operating well below capacity (or even closing and actually reducing capacity), there's still a push for continued or even stronger lockdowns because people just don't want to see anyone die of this. Which is a very human impulse, but not a practical one.
 
I agree with you that we are trying to compare apples and oranges when we compare different areas, but I think you have the situation in Italy backwards. My understanding is that Italy most likely dramatically undercounted by not including home and nursing home deaths as COVID19 deaths.

We need to be talking more about nursing homes and other institutional living settings as they seem to be the points of most vunerability.

M.

I'm in MA, which is one of the states with the most cases. What I hear about on the local news most are nursing homes getting hit. The Holyoke Soldiers Home, mainly (I'm in the western part of the state).
 
Ain't over yet - we need to keep up with the strong mitigation efforts until we either have a vaccine (long way off) or an effective test and isolate regime (wondering about that being a long way off too).
 
Social distancing reduces deaths caused by overwhelmed medical resources. If you keep the number of seriously ill people below the the level the infrastructure can serve, you save lives.

By slowing the spread, social distancing also allows time for additional medical equipment to be developed and spread,. More capacity = more lives saved.

Development, testing of a production of a vaccine would save lives. Development of better treatment protocols could also save lives. But we need to give the people developing both time to work.

Reducing the community spread by social distancing makes management of the outbreaks by a test, trace and isolate strategy a viable way to minimize spread while gradually opening up society. And oh yeah, saving more lives.

More capacity only equals more lives saved when there is demand for those resources, when there are lives at risk for lack of capacity. In my county, 41% of hospital beds are currently available. Increasing that number to 50 or 60 or 100% doesn't save a single additional life. In other parts of my state, occupancy is under 1/3 and hospitals are warning of impending closures if they aren't allowed to resume non-emergency procedures. In those places, more capacity is actually threatening lives - the lives that are waiting for treatments that are on hold indefinitely and the lives that will be lost if rural hospitals close under the strain of all that available capacity.

Medical system capacity - not new cases or rate of increase alone (esp. not rate of increase - going from 2 cases to 4 is a 100% increase, but it doesn't threaten to overwhelm anything) - should be guiding how we handle shut downs and reopenings, but as long as things are managed on a state or federal level that doesn't work very well. Hospitals in Detroit being near capacity doesn't have any impact on hospitals in Traverse City or the U.P., any more than the hospital situation in San Diego determines how accessible treatment is in San Francisco. We're also taking a very short-sighted view of that capacity, scaling back or cancelling expansions (or closing existing facilities) because it looks like the immediate crisis has peaked rather than keeping those resources available to absorb the (hopefully slower but still non-zero) increase in cases that will come when things do start reopening.

And since no one is seriously talking about implementing a test-trace-isolate system other than the paranoid opposition who are preemptively declaring it evil, I don't think we can realistically expect to sit home until that is in place. We're now 3 months into the federal response to this thing and lucky to be running a few thousand tests per state, per day, with no funding apparently forthcoming for the massive increase in staff that would be required for a contact tracing approach. There's no support to make it happen and state resources are already pushed to the breaking point with other aspects of the response.
 
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