NYT op-ed video on DL living wage

A great example is that I was able to get a job and pay for college on my own and only accumulate $16,000 in debt. First year and a half I had help, and it took me 5 years. (Engineering degree) No room and board, just cost of credits not including books and other stuff.

Now that same degree is probably double or quadruple the cost. And I graduated college 15 years ago. (I feel old.)
 
A living wage would probably consist of funding food, clothing, and shelter for 2 (why 2? well, we want salaries to be able to support at least 1 other person - either a spouse, a child, an elderly parent, etc - it's the baseline of wanting families to be the cornerstone of our society). Now, this is "livable" - there are many things I didn't include b/c to live, you need food in your belly, a roof over your head, and something to clothe you...ultimately, everything else becomes nice to have (now some things are REALLY wanted, like healthcare, and some are less wanted, like cable tv, but this helps)...So, I'd pull the following...

The "thrifty" plan for 2 from the USDA food council - $389.90/month
The median price of a 1 bedroom apartment across 50 metros (picked #25) - $1100/month - note that some 1 bedroom rents are as low as $470/month and as high as $3K/month in some metros, so this will have wild differences on a livable wage (thus, why establishing one federally is pretty much impossible)
The average that adults spend on clothing/shoes is $161/month - since we want livable and not average, 1/2 of that seems reasonable * 2 people - $161/month
Total per month after tax needed is about $1650/month in the "average" city...for 12 months, that would be $19800/year...round it to an even $20K at 2000 hours, you'd need a take home wage to be livable of $10/hour after taxes if you provided NO subsidies to someone (no section 8 housing, no food stamps, etc)...this would give them the bare minimum to live on...pretax, it would depend on where you are for the wage - it would probably range from $12-$18/hour based on the state...

I think this is actually pretty close to the poverty line the fed uses, so I'm betting they do some sort of this calculus when they establish that line...
 
Well, he has a point. It seems like you saw 34 million results and didn't bother to even click on the top few (most relevant) ones to do some reading, choosing instead to keep coming back here and demanding someone define it for you.

What point would that be? He is the one that claimed I didn't click on any links and called me lazy. For the record I went through about 4 pages of links(probably picked up some malware along the way). No one had a solid answer. There were several calculators, I tried a few. For my zip code they ranged from 15,700 and change up to 25,000 can change. I am demanding nothing, I am simple asking people who are clamoring for a livable wage to tell me what they think that is. Thank you for piling on though.
 
The "thrifty" plan for 2 from the USDA food council - $389.90/month
The median price of a 1 bedroom apartment across 50 metros (picked #25) - $1100/month - note that some 1 bedroom rents are as low as $470/month and as high as $3K/month in some metros, so this will have wild differences on a livable wage (thus, why establishing one federally is pretty much impossible)
The average that adults spend on clothing/shoes is $161/month - since we want livable and not average, 1/2 of that seems reasonable * 2 people - $161/month
Total per month after tax needed is about $1650/month in the "average" city...for 12 months, that would be $19800/year...round it to an even $20K at 2000 hours, you'd need a take home wage to be livable of $10/hour after taxes if you provided NO subsidies to someone (no section 8 housing, no food stamps, etc)...this would give them the bare minimum to live on...pretax, it would depend on where you are for the wage - it would probably range from $12-$18/hour based on the state...

AHA! Thank you for posting some hard numbers. A few questions:

1. If the spouse is working is that factored in as well? What I mean to say is if you have two people in the house making the wage that is designed to support 2 does that factor into the calculus?
2. I am not clear on the food stamps, section 8 housing. If you receive these benefits this changes your living wage?
a. Follow up questions on that if that is yes how would an employer factor that in?
3. Is this wage going to be established as the Federal level or at a lower level of govt?


In your analysis I take it that Disney's 15$ starting wage would meet these requirements for Orlando but not for Anaheim?
 


AHA! Thank you for posting some hard numbers. A few questions:

1. If the spouse is working is that factored in as well? What I mean to say is if you have two people in the house making the wage that is designed to support 2 does that factor into the calculus?
2. I am not clear on the food stamps, section 8 housing. If you receive these benefits this changes your living wage?
a. Follow up questions on that if that is yes how would an employer factor that in?
3. Is this wage going to be established as the Federal level or at a lower level of govt?


In your analysis I take it that Disney's 15$ starting wage would meet these requirements for Orlando but not for Anaheim?

You receive food stamps/section 8 based on your income, not the other way around. I have know several young people who come in to my job to work for a couple of months and then quit to go back on welfare. They say that the government gives them more on welfare then they make working a minimum wage job.
 
AHA! Thank you for posting some hard numbers. A few questions:

1. If the spouse is working is that factored in as well? What I mean to say is if you have two people in the house making the wage that is designed to support 2 does that factor into the calculus?
2. I am not clear on the food stamps, section 8 housing. If you receive these benefits this changes your living wage?
a. Follow up questions on that if that is yes how would an employer factor that in?
3. Is this wage going to be established as the Federal level or at a lower level of govt?


In your analysis I take it that Disney's 15$ starting wage would meet these requirements for Orlando but not for Anaheim?

If you got benefits from the government, you'd need less wage...so, I used a wage that assumed no government help, but used costs that "are", not costs that are subsidized...

I did not assume a spouse was working...if they were, I'd assume they'd have 2 kids or 2 extra people to support (elderly parent and 1 kid, etc), so every cost would pretty much double anyway (since housing would need to be 2 bedroom, etc). I mean, that's not perfect, but it's rough guessing...

And this is "livable", not good or nice or middle class or ideal for a child, etc...but we keep talking "livable" (or bare minimum for our society built on family units), so I used numbers that could approach that...
 
A living wage is so subjective as is what that wage should be and what expenses it should cover. Some here mentioned the cost to rent a one bedroom apartment but what's wrong with renting a studio apartment, getting a roommate or even just renting a room somewhere if that is what you could afford? Why is a two bedroom needed if it's more than one or even two people? Some mentioned needing to cover the cost of a car or car repairs but minimum wage jobs are usually available all over. If you can't afford a car, why not take a minimum wage job that you can walk to? Some mentioned the need to support another person (adult or child). Another adult should either work or qualify for benefits like social security or disability if that was needed for the family. If the other person is a child, why is the absent parent not contributing support? The cost of food also varies tremendously depending on what you buy and how much you can use coupons for your purchases, not to say what help is available through a neighborhood food pantry. Some talk about the cost of clothing but how much clothing does someone really need and can they get by with good quality, inexpensive clothing from a nearby Good Will?

Minimum wage should reflect the value a position has to the company. If a company has to pay more than the job is worth, the company will likely find a way to eliminate the job. This might be through automation or outsourcing, increasing the workload of remaining staff or eliminating the task altogether. What will the person do then? I believe society should provide a safety net for those who have no way to make it on their own but that help shouldn't be more than what a minimum wage job would support. I also think that the expectation of what a living wage should cover may not be the same for everyone.
 


And this is "livable", not good or nice or middle class or ideal for a child, etc...but we keep talking "livable" (or bare minimum for our society built on family units), so I used numbers that could approach that...

With a goal in mind how would you go about getting there. Is this something that you think should be legislated at the Federal, state or local level? Do you think companies should be entrusted to move in that direction, or do you think consumers have to hold companies accountable to this standard?
 
Companies should never be entrusted to do anything for the "common good". Companies should be trusted to do what is best for them. That's why there is a government and regulation so companies don't pollute the world around you, sell you lead paint, poison your food, sell you broken ****, sell cars that down actually work, don't enslave populations, don't put 8 year olds to work for pennies a day.

All these examples have happened, in this country, over the last 150 years and often more than once and within the last decade. All of these things are bad. Very bad.

That is why we have things like minimum wage and discussions about livable wage.

The repercussions of having a livable wage, giving people the dignity of work etc. have an incredible benefit to society. If you're the type who hate handouts and foodstamps and all that stuff, you will want the government to regulate a sustainable livable work environment assuming you do average work for a full work week.
 
With a goal in mind how would you go about getting there. Is this something that you think should be legislated at the Federal, state or local level? Do you think companies should be entrusted to move in that direction, or do you think consumers have to hold companies accountable to this standard?

We have convoluted the process and environment so much, it's hard to say what the best way to get there is...I kinda like the way Trump is starting to inch his way there (it's what I think has been the most successful part of his uneven presidency - he's had highs and lows)...I think his baby steps are the right way...but who knows? Maybe we're so entrenched in a mindset that's hard to break, even if we make steps that should help, they won't.

I think a good business environment helps, one open to all sizes of businesses to flourish and one which has no one uber-dominant in the field...I think a tight labor market helps...I think an informed consumer helps...but it's getting everything working together...getting the balance right (I think I've said the triangle of corporate profit/employee/consumer so many times on this board, people might be sick of me:)...

As for using government to make something happen...I'm a fan of convincing (culture) over forcing (government). When you force something, you will only forever get the minimum done and only when continually prodded (and the forced will forever look for ways to get around the task). When you convince, you get at least the minimum and many times over the minimum. But to convince, you have to get minds open 1st to be convinced.

I mean, most of these discussions have been about "perfect world" and how do we get there. I don't think there's anyone here who would say that a person working a full day's work shouldn't make enough money to go home and put food on his/her family's table, clothes on their backs, and a roof over their heads. But if we had the answers to how to get that all the time for everyone, we'd probably all live in Walden by now.
 
The repercussions of having a livable wage, giving people the dignity of work etc. have an incredible benefit to society.

Are there any drawbacks to having a minimum wage?

If you're the type who hate handouts and foodstamps and all that stuff

It may come as a surprise to some, but most people don't hate programs like foodstamps, what some people do hate is the abuse of these programs. Most people understand the intent behind these programs, but also know that these programs have fallen victim to a corrupt/incompetent bureaucracy.

you will want the government to regulate a sustainable livable work environment assuming you do average work for a full work week.

Sorry no. At worst the govt. is incompetent at best it is corrupt, we do not need more regulations to screw more things up so we can have more govt. regulations.

As for using government to make something happen...I'm a fan of convincing (culture) over forcing (government). When you force something, you will only forever get the minimum done and only when continually prodded (and the forced will forever look for ways to get around the task). When you convince, you get at least the minimum and many times over the minimum. But to convince, you have to get minds open 1st to be convinced.

I think this is spot on. There are a number of companies(and now Disney is one of them) who have raised their starting salaries to above what their competitors start off at. In a lot of cases these companies are known to have some of the best customer service in their industry(I think Disney has some of the best Customer Service). Why? Because the higher starting salary brings in more candidates and companies can be pickier about who they chose. This higher customer service leads to really high customer loyalty. Good examples of this that I can think of are Chick-fil-a, Publix and Costco.
 
Are there any drawbacks to having a minimum wage?

It may come as a surprise to some, but most people don't hate programs like foodstamps, what some people do hate is the abuse of these programs. Most people understand the intent behind these programs, but also know that these programs have fallen victim to a corrupt/incompetent bureaucracy.

Sorry no. At worst the govt. is incompetent at best it is corrupt, we do not need more regulations to screw more things up so we can have more govt. regulations.

I think this is spot on. There are a number of companies(and now Disney is one of them) who have raised their starting salaries to above what their competitors start off at. In a lot of cases these companies are known to have some of the best customer service in their industry(I think Disney has some of the best Customer Service). Why? Because the higher starting salary brings in more candidates and companies can be pickier about who they chose. This higher customer service leads to really high customer loyalty. Good examples of this that I can think of are Chick-fil-a, Publix and Costco.

There are drawbacks to nearly anything if you set them to one extreme or another. Are you asking if we should have a minimum wage? My answer would be yes. You can go back and study history and our transition from the second half of the 19th century into the modern era for more information on where this all comes from.

Regarding foodstamps, I don't think the agricultural department is incompetent or corrupt. Any system is going to have leeches and people abusing it, but I think largely it's done quite well in feeding people when looking at the totality of it. Your view on government is warped. I'm by no means a pro-government all day every day guy where they can do no harm, but you're a bit off the deep end. This isn't the space to attempt to convince you otherwise. All I can say is that for every case of corruption and/or incompetence I can show you greater corruption/incompetence in the private sector. Companies and government are run by people, it's inevitable.
 
I'm by no means a pro-government all day every day guy where they can do no harm, but you're a bit off the deep end.

Is this your typical debating style. Do you find it tough to have a discussion without doing this?

All I can say is that for every case of corruption and/or incompetence I can show you greater corruption/incompetence in the private sector.

I seriously doubt that. Also a big difference. If I see corruption in a company I can chose not to do business with that company, I know, I know I am free to move right?
 
You claim government is corrupt and incompetent (though typically you have to be one or the other not both). There really isn't anything to discuss if that is the starting point.

You claim that you can simply can choose to not do business with them. What happened a decade ago when a corrupt banking industry nearly collapsed the global economy and housing market? That effected everyone regardless if you did business with Bear Sterns or Countrywide. If you want to start claiming the government is awful, then provide me with examples (there are plenty to chose from) and I'll show you an example of private corporations messing with innocent people because of poor or corrupt decisions. Humans can be crappy in government or in the private sector. We need both sectors though to have a functional society.
 
You claim government is corrupt and incompetent (though typically you have to be one or the other not both).

This is a joke right?

You claim that you can simply can choose to not do business with them. What happened a decade ago when a corrupt banking industry nearly collapsed the global economy and housing market? That effected everyone regardless if you did business with Bear Sterns or Countrywide.

Yes I claim that you can choose not to do business with them. Do you disagree? Phew nearly collapsed the global economy and housing market? Good gracious I really don't think it was as dire as that.

I am interested in solutions to issues so far what I have seen is a bunch of pitchforks and torches in an attempt to incite envy. A poster or two has posted numbers for their estimates for a livable wage. The 15$/hour from Disney is in the range that the poster suggested for a livable wage. Do you agree? If not what should it be. Realize no govt. regulation was needed to force Disney to increase this wage. If several companies can see the value of it without govt. regulations why can't others. I really don't think the root of our issue is a lack of govt. regulations(I would be willing to bet the majority of Americans feel the same). Nor do I think yet more govt. regulations will solve the issue.
 
An honest question, how do you define a living wage? What is the definition of this term?
Honest question asking for honest answers only.
What an answer to that question might look like is a list of things that one can utilize to live, such as rent, food, transportation, clothes. What would be on your (collectively, meaning all DIS'ers) list?

Canada (and other places) use a LICO to determine poverty levels - Low income cut off. Basically it is a relative number, which can be municipally or regionally determined, of what % of your income is spent on basic necessities: food, housing, clothing, transport, etc. Something like this seems appropriate for "Livable wage" since they will vary from place to place.
 
I'm one of those people who feel that your pay should not be based on how many hours you work. What people are paid should be based on the skills and responsibilities required fpr the job, the education level needed for the job, and what the "market" decides the job is worth.
If a person works 40 hours at their job and can't afford to live on that, then they have a responsibility to themselves to find a different job that allows them to do that. I do not believe a company should be forced to pay anyone a living wage just because a person works 40 hours. I also believe that doing so will only create more part-time jobs where companies stop hiring full time employees, which benefits them in 2 ways since they will probably no longer offer benefits such as healthcare, paid time off, 401K matching (and pensions if they even exist anymore). Then what, is that better or worse?

This used to be relatively fine and dandy when the economy was different, when there were more manufacturing and skills based jobs, when an education opened many many doors. But this just doesn't reflect a Tertiary economy. About 80% of the US economy is now based on the service sector, yes, 80%. Many of those jobs, tens of millions of them, are minimum wage, or low paying jobs, and many of them don't require any high level of education, or skills. They require some on the job training. Now, those jobs are still difficult, you still work HARD. As just about anyone who has ever worked in a fast food joint will tell you, its not an easy job, its physically and mentally demanding (and I have worked in both a lumber yard, as a professor in a University, and in fast food). When 10s of Millions of jobs do not require education or high levels of skill, its just not as simple as "find a better job" because you will always need those tens of millions of people in those positions. For someone to move up and out, someone else has to move in, potentially down and in. The economy isn't one of infinite upward mobility, its a pyramid. The base level with lower pay, fewer benefits, is wide and deep, as you move up there are fewer and fewer jobs. For every person on the top, hundreds of thousands, millions even, have to be on the bottom.

The fact that you think people who work 40 hours a week, and can't afford to live (so they probably do more than just 40 hours) are going to be able to afford to just "find a different job" demonstrates you have never had to live like that. You don't have a clue what its like to live in poverty, especially as a member of the working poor. When you are working 40 - 80 hours a week, having to walk and or rely on (usually awful) public transit, and still manage all your home responsibilities and personal care responsibilities, you don't have the TIME to search for another job, and you don't have the money to take time off work to go to interviews, or to "just move" as so many with your vision of the job market like to say.

You simply have an unrealistic, and unsupported by fact, view of how the job market and the economy works.
 
Canada (and other places) use a LICO to determine poverty levels - Low income cut off. Basically it is a relative number, which can be municipally or regionally determined, of what % of your income is spent on basic necessities: food, housing, clothing, transport, etc. Something like this seems appropriate for "Livable wage" since they will vary from place to place.

The US Government determines poverty levels - The federal poverty level is the indicator the U.S. government uses to determine who is eligible for federal subsidies and aid.

The question is around a "livable wage" - I think everyone agrees people who work shouldn't be at or below the poverty level, it is what constitutes a fair livable wage.

maybe we could use something like "2 times the poverty level" or something
 
One of the reasons I stopped vacationing at WDW was due to their low wages. I actually felt bad blowing through so much money while also knowing the low wages they were paying their Castmembers.
 

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