Recreational marijuana legal here in Canada as of tomorrow

[kimblebee]

.

 

[ronandannette]

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I don't quite know what to say to that...

 

[pigletto]

I guess we'll agree to disagree. This costs many, many millions of public dollars per year. At the same time, meaningful addiction treatment is practically impossible to access through our health system; there are 35 in-patient beds in our city for a population of 1.2 million. Private facilities are largely beyond reach, cost-wise, for the average addict because with a public heath care system very few people have supplemental private insurance that would cover addiction treatment. So instead of even attempting to address the need, we give addicts a cozy place to smoke, snort or shoot with cartoons playing on tv and sugary snacks provided. Oh, and free naloxone kits available to everyone through pharmacies and fire halls, all while gang violence fueled entirely by the drug trade rage. It's simply disgraceful.

Harm reduction is part of meaningful addiction treatment. It’s not about a “cozy place to snort or shoot”, but about reducing the likelihood of death and disease associated with drug use, that puts such a strain on our health care system.

Our lack of meaningful addiction treatment is because it’s still seen as a moral issue rather than the health crisis that it is, and adequate funding isn’t demanded by the public because politicians would be absolutely skewered for directing funds to drug treatment. Take a look at your own opinions, would you accept your health care dollars being directed to rehab for drug addicts ? Take a look at the current statistics of addiction in Canada. An overwhelming majority of new addicts are becoming addicted beginning with prescription opoids. If you want to be morally outraged, point the compass at the pharmaceutical companies who KNEW and intentionally misled the medical community on the dangers of their drugs. ( https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/health/purdue-opioids-oxycontin.html) .People end up turning to street drugs to support a raging addiction to prescription opioids that they can no longer access or afford.

As long as my government is willing to hand out naloxone I will carry a kit. I’m not going to let a fellow human being die for any reason if it’s preventable. Maybe this is because I have a parent who is a medical professional/ researcher in the field of addictions. Or maybe it’s because I know that my not being an addict isn’t because I’m morally superior, but because of a host of other biological , sociological and economic factors that didn’t put me at risk for addiction.
Some excellent information here here if anyone wants to know the evidence based argument for harm reduction
https://ontario.cmha.ca/harm-reduction/
https://www.health.gov.bc.ca/library/publications/year/2005/hrcommunityguide.pdf

And one of the most eye opening and compassionate books written on addiction.. by Dr Gabor Mate, a Canadian who spent many years of his career working with the addicted in Vancouver’s downtown eastside. His work is lauded all over the world .
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/617702.In_the_Realm_of_Hungry_Ghosts

 

[Floridaman999]

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You still deleting stuff?

 

[kimblebee]

I'd rather they have access to meaningful treatment. I'm not a drug addict and I never will be but I try to think of this from the perspective of a parent/family member. Of course you wouldn't want your child/spouse/sibling to die in the street but when you think about it, all that's really happening is they're being "revived", sometime repeatedly, only to keep using until it does kill them. Although painfully few of them actually want help, even if they did, it's simply not available. Tell me how that benefits society? How? Simply framing those of us who oppose this policy as cruel doesn't make it any less insane.

I agree, more easily accessible help would be preferred but until that happens why not save people’s lives? It helps society because we aren’t a country that stands by and let’s its citizens die, for whatever reason.

I understand your point, but no, I will never be an addict.

I’m sorry, but you can’t say that unless you would turn down medication..and that’s totally your right. I think that’s called Jain medicine, right?

Anyway..I’m white, middle class, come from a home with two parents, get along with all my siblings, don’t struggle to find money for food every day..everything points to me NOT being an addict.

BUT

When I have an ms attack, my treatment includes a mega dose of steroids. It’s given by IV for 3-5 days depending on how stubborn the relapse is being. By day 2, I am jonsing for my dose and when I’m done and home I can’t wait to get to the hospital for my next dose. It has nothing to do with pain relief or anything..I have no idea why I need it so bad, but I do. I go through withdrawal when I’m done, and it’s so severe that I have to do a month long taper off the drug. If they’d let me, I’d do the IV every day but, you know, side effects to mega steroids.

I’ve never had a desire to do cocaine or meth but I definitely wouldn’t because I know I would be instantly addicted due to my disposition.

Unless you’ve been through it, you can’t say you won’t be an addict. You don’t know what you’re like in that situation.

 

[ronandannette]

Harm reduction is part of meaningful addiction treatment. It’s not about a “cozy place to snort or shoot”, but about reducing the likelihood of death and disease associated with drug use, that puts such a strain on our health care system.

Our lack of meaningful addiction treatment is because it’s still seen as a moral issue rather than the health crisis that it is, and adequate funding isn’t demanded by the public because politicians would be absolutely skewered for directing funds to drug treatment. Take a look at your own opinions, would you accept your health care dollars being directed to rehab for drug addicts ? Take a look at the current statistics of addiction in Canada. An overwhelming majority of new addicts are becoming addicted beginning with prescription opoids. If you want to be morally outraged, point the compass at the pharmaceutical companies who KNEW and intentionally misled the medical community on the dangers of their drugs. ( https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/health/purdue-opioids-oxycontin.html) .People end up turning to street drugs to support a raging addiction to prescription opioids that they can no longer access or afford.

As long as my government is willing to hand out naloxone I will carry a kit. I’m not going to let a fellow human being die for any reason if it’s preventable. Maybe this is because I have a parent who is a medical professional/ researcher in the field of addictions. Or maybe it’s because I know that my not being an addict isn’t because I’m morally superior, but because of a host of other biological , sociological and economic factors that didn’t put me at risk for addiction.
Some excellent information here here if anyone wants to know the evidence based argument for harm reduction
https://ontario.cmha.ca/harm-reduction/
https://www.health.gov.bc.ca/library/publications/year/2005/hrcommunityguide.pdf

And one of the most eye opening and compassionate books written on addiction.. by Dr Gabor Mate, a Canadian who spent many years of his career working with the addicted in Vancouver’s downtown eastside. His work is lauded all over the world .
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/617702.In_the_Realm_of_Hungry_Ghosts

Absolutely. If you gleaned otherwise from my posts it's because you read them through a bias of your own. You assume this is all theoretical and ideological to me? Why would you take that liberty? I've got addicts in my family, have had an addicted friend die of causes 100% related to drug use, I have been assaulted by a user in the pursuit of money for drugs, for many years I have given money and time to a not-for-profit addiction recovery facility - in fact my DH is there right now. My outrage is that addicts CANNOT access treatment, other than the "help" of surviving another day to use. My heartbreak is that many addicts wouldn't access treatment even if it were available. And while perhaps all the addicts you know of are victims of having developed a dependency during medical treatment, none of the ones I know are - none. I suspect neither of us are entirely objective about that part of the issue.

 

[pigletto]

Absolutely. If you gleaned otherwise from my posts it's because you read them through a bias of your own. You assume this is all theoretical and ideological to me? Why would you take that liberty? I've got addicts in my family, have had an addicted friend die of causes 100% related to drug use, I have been assaulted by a user in the pursuit of money for drugs, for many years I have given money and time to a not-for-profit addiction recovery facility - in fact my DH is there right now. My outrage is that addicts CANNOT access treatment, other than the "help" of surviving another day to use. My heartbreak is that many addicts wouldn't access treatment even if it were available. And while perhaps all the addicts you know of are victims of having developed a dependency during medical treatment, none of the ones I know are - none. I suspect neither of us are entirely objective about that part of the issue.

Where did I assume it was theoretical or ideological to you ? I did no such thing. I am sorry for your heartbreak and how your personal experiences have influenced your opinions. Truly. I still disagree with your opinions and took issue with your characterization of harm reduction . We both have painful experiences with the subject, yet we see it very differently. That’s ok.
I’ll be leaving this conversation now, as it’s become emotional and personal and won’t go anywhere positive. I wish you well.

 

[MillauFr]

What are some big Canadian junk food brands in which I can invest?

Go for the big money. Investing directly in the companies producing the weed.

 

[Colleen27]

I'm not sure I know enough about how the laws were in Canada to have a good opinion. I support legalization here in the U.S. (and my state will probably pass it in Nov.) mainly from a criminal justice reform perspective. I'm not interested in whether weed is healthy or whether it is better/worse than booze or any of that. I do care deeply that a pot possession bust is the first contact with the legal system for a huge number of people who never quite get past having that on their records, and it makes no sense to me that we waste law enforcement, court and detention resources on low-level users of a substance that is not associated with addiction or overdose.

From a tourism perspective, I can see it being really popular here in border towns... When I was 19, drinking in Canada was practically a right of passage. I could see going over for the legal pot being that way too, at least until it is legal on our side of the river as well.

 

[ronandannette]

I agree, more easily accessible help would be preferred but until that happens why not save people’s lives? It helps society because we aren’t a country that stands by and let’s its citizens die, for whatever reason.



I’m sorry, but you can’t say that unless you would turn down medication..and that’s totally your right. I think that’s called Jain medicine, right?

Anyway..I’m white, middle class, come from a home with two parents, get along with all my siblings, don’t struggle to find money for food every day..everything points to me NOT being an addict.

BUT

When I have an ms attack, my treatment includes a mega dose of steroids. It’s given by IV for 3-5 days depending on how stubborn the relapse is being. By day 2, I am jonsing for my dose and when I’m done and home I can’t wait to get to the hospital for my next dose. It has nothing to do with pain relief or anything..I have no idea why I need it so bad, but I do. I go through withdrawal when I’m done, and it’s so severe that I have to do a month long taper off the drug. If they’d let me, I’d do the IV every day but, you know, side effects to mega steroids.

I’ve never had a desire to do cocaine or meth but I definitely wouldn’t because I know I would be instantly addicted due to my disposition.

Unless you’ve been through it, you can’t say you won’t be an addict. You don’t know what you’re like in that situation.

Regarding the bolded - we ARE letting them die. Die long, tragic, pathetic deaths, later if not sooner. We need meaningful treatment options for rehab, recovery and future support for abstinence.

As to the rest of your post, I've though about this issue a lot this afternoon because the fact is, I AM an addict of sorts - I'm a cigarette smoker, which I've not kept secret, and offer no excuses for. Now, please read this right - I am not applying this rational to anyone but myself. My nicotine addiction was 100% self-imposed. Nobody made me start and everyday I choose to avoid the hard, hard work of detoxing and and staying clean, although I know it can be done (I've done it for years at a time) and there are many supports I can access.

Intimately understanding that, I would ABSOLUTELY decline narcotics and pursue any and all other non-narcotic pain relief. Insightful pain management, from acute to chronic, is now receiving a much higher priority amongst medical professionals that until very recently just defaulted to opioids. If, by some unforeseen circumstances I was unable to make my own medical decisions and ended up being given opioids to the point I was dependent, I would bite the bullet and detox immediately when I regained my faculties. Not for a minute do I think it would be anything less than excruciating, but I fully believe it would be possible.

As for Jain medicine, I've never heard of it before now and google wasn't too enlightening. I don't forego medicine, I've received opiods many times before including fentanyl, and on a one-time basis they obviously don't cause any harm. If I was in the end-stages of a terminal illness I'd also have them shoot me full of whatever, dependency at that point would be irrelevant.

P.S. I remember an old thread where you once mentioned toradol. Although I don't really remember the topic and I don't exactly know what toradol is, when we were in Mexico recently it caught my eye as being available there without prescription. I though about you.

 

[Colleen27]

Most of Canada it will actually be 18 or 19 years of age, the same as the drinking age in that province or territory. Except for Quebec, which I believe will be 21 years old. Sure there will be a black market for anyone underage, isn't there always? However, I strongly believe most people of legal age will shop in a dispensary or other more regulated market and those are the people we are talking about here.

The black market changes with a legal product, though - even though teens won't be able to buy for themselves, they'll end up looking to older friends to buy on their behalf. Which is just as negative in terms of pot in the hands of minors, but doesn't carry the same potential risks of buying on the streets (exaggerated as those may be).

I do not know if there is a connection or not, but the Opioid problems seems to much worse on the east coast where the marijuana laws are much tougher than the west coast.

There are those who have tried to make a connection there, but I'm not quite convinced yet. Mass. should be an interesting test-case on that, assuming they ever really implement legalization fully, because they do have a serious opioid problem and have legalized. Michigan might be as well, depending on how it plays out.

- It's impossible to ignore the fact that crime and violence are connected to drugs. We can say marijuana is a "soft drug" and it's "like alcohol", but I'm not aware of people shooting each other over whiskey in dark allies.

And yet, during Prohibition they did just that... It isn't the substance that feeds crime. It is the black market profit potential.

 

[MrsPete]

All I know is that my brother vapes the stuff for excessive anxiety and panic and it seems to be doing him some good

Several kids in my high school have been taken away in ambulances because of vaping. It's not safe. Our school nurse has quite a bit to say about the topic, and I do trust her facts.

You are actually making the exact opposite point you think you are.

Though I am solidly against legalization of marijuana, I wasn't making a point -- I was adding to the list of facts presented by another poster.

Every issue you have raised above, can as easily be applied to alcohol. Some people are addicted to alcohol, some people arent addicted to alcohol but drink enough to effect themselves and others, ruining their life-should we criminalize alcohol?

I agree that alcohol is problematic as well, but that isn't really the issue at hand -- deflecting the discussion doesn't really add to the content.

Since you asked, yes, in a perfect world, we would get rid of alcohol too -- a dangerous substance that has ruined more than a few lives -- but that is off-topic.

 

[Colleen27]

Here, you can see that in 2012, 52% of prisoners were serving time for drugs. 99.5% of those were serving time for trafficking, and only .5% for simple possession.

The fact is convictions and subsequent jail sentences are extremely low for simple marijuana possession, and even marijuana convictions as a whole are no where near 50% of all drug convictions.

These are hard stats to parse, though, because distribution/low-level trafficking is often in the eye of the arresting officer. In my wilder years, I dated a guy who served time in jail for "dealing" pot because he had three pre-rolled joints in a cigarette pack on the way to a party. Another friend was charged as a dealer because he had 3 or 4 dime bags that he'd just bought in his car, and yet another because he had a quarter-ounce. In the first two cases, the officers and prosecutors chose to use the way the pot was packaged to prove it was intended for sale rather than personal consumption, and in the third they argued that no one would buy that kind of weight for personal use. I know less of that happens now than did 15-20 years ago when I was around a lot of pot smokers, but it does make me skeptical when people point out how few convictions are for "simple possession". Because the people I know who were charged only with simple possession had a roach in an ashtray or cigarette pack. Anyone who had any quantity of actual pot at all caught higher level charges.

 

[Colleen27]

The police do not chase minor offenders.

I suppose it depends on where you're at. Searching the car for drugs is still a pretty standard "teenager got pulled over" experience in my neck of the woods, and I don't think anyone would argue that the police think they're breaking up drug rings by having the drug dog sniff through the cars of the kids who get stopped doing 40 on the way to the local pizza joint.

Yikes. Rehab is pretty easy to access here in the states. I was just thinking of the shameful amount of people who die where I am from this crisis...and I largely blame the pharma industry pushing these drugs. I mean, they will give me multiple kinds of opioids and have, I just won't use them; and there are tons of people walking around way worse than I am from a pain management position. I was just thinking "less people dying and getting help" especially since you mentioned medical professionals. I didn't realize there was no further help coming. Shame they aren't treating the root of it and not just the immediate shooting up issues of od, etc. This picture is far different than the happy one I was envisioning previously. So, people not dying is still great, but not getting systemic help is certainly less valuable.

It really, really isn't. We tried for years to find quality treatment for my brother and mostly ran into long wait-lists, places that wouldn't even take an addict voluntarily seeking treatment because their only sliding-scale beds were devoted to court-ordered patients, and of course, high, high, high costs far out of reach of the middle class. The main treatment that is available to most is long-term substitution treatment with suboxone or methadone and those are very expensive and very long-term, so patients often turn to the street for their maintenance drugs when the money runs out (which then creates a thriving black market where addicts can sell or trade their suboxone for heroin, and keeps them in contact with their dealers which increases the chances of relapse).

 

[kimblebee]

Regarding the bolded - we ARE letting them die. Die long, tragic, pathetic deaths, later if not sooner. We need meaningful treatment options for rehab, recovery and future support for abstinence.

As to the rest of your post, I've though about this issue a lot this afternoon because the fact is, I AM an addict of sorts - I'm a cigarette smoker, which I've not kept secret, and offer no excuses for. Now, please read this right - I am not applying this rational to anyone but myself. My nicotine addiction was 100% self-imposed. Nobody made me start and I choose to avoid the hard, hard work of detoxing and and staying clean, although I know it can be done (I've done it for years at a time) and there are many supports I can access.

Intimately understanding that, I would ABSOLUTELY decline narcotics and pursue any and all other non-narcotic pain relief. Insightful pain management, from acute to chronic, is now receiving a much higher priority amongst medical professionals that until very recently just defaulted to opioids. If, by some unforeseen circumstances I was unable to make my own medical decisions and ended up having been given opioids to the point I was dependent, I would bite the bullet and detox immediately. Not for a minute do I think it would be anything less than excruciating, but I fully believe it would be possible.

As for Jain medicine, I've never heard of it before now and google wasn't too enlightening. I don't forego medicine, I've received opiods many times before including fentanyl, and on a one-time basis they obviously don't cause any harm. If I was in the end-stages of a terminal illness I'd also have them shoot me full of whatever, dependency at that point would be irrelevant.

P.S. I remember an old thread where you once mentioned toradol. Although I don't really remember the topic and I don't exactly know what toradol is, when we were in Mexico recently it caught my eye as being available there without prescription. I though about you.

LOL funny that a drug made you think of me

 

[bcla]

And yet, during Prohibition they did just that... It isn't the substance that feeds crime. It is the black market profit potential.

The criminal element is more complex though. Even though tobacco and alcoholic beverages are ostensibly legal, there's still smuggling in order to avoid taxes. There's also moonshine. It remains to be seen what happens with marijuana long term. There's a question about taxes and whether legal suppliers can meet the demand.

Illegal growers often have cost advantages too. It's not just taxes on the product but that they generally don't pay income and other taxes. Many grow on public or private lands without knowledge of the owner, so that saves on costs. Quite a few divert water from streams. It's not just illegal, but it avoids certain productions costs.

However, it remains to be seen how this works in Canada since apparently there will be legal means to import from other countries should they choose to decriminalize. Apparently Mexico may be the next country, and their costs should be lower.

 

[ronandannette]

LOL funny that a drug made you think of me

I was actually kinda gobsmacked at all the really aggressive farmacia hawkers handing out flyers. There were SO MANY controlled substances available there! Not just pain-meds; everything from asthma inhalers to injectible steroids and toradol was very, very prominently advertised.

 

[kimblebee]

I was actually kinda gobsmacked at all the really aggressive farmacia hawkers handing out flyers. There were SO MANY controlled substances available there! Not just pain-meds; everything from asthma inhalers to injectible steroids and toradol was very, very prominently advertised.

I understand some people might need medications they can’t afford but man, that’s so dangerous. Sure Toradol seems great but who knows how you’ll react to it. I didn’t know I was allergic to codeine until I took it. Luckily, it’s not anaphylactic but what if it was?

I truly feel sympathy for every person who has to resort to buying drugs off the street because they can’t afford the legal prescription.

 

[mummabear]

Which is just as negative in terms of pot in the hands of minors, but doesn't carry the same potential risks of buying on the streets (exaggerated as those may be).

Underage drinking is prevalent. Minors are already smoking pot, I dont expect that to change much, but we can stop them from dealing with gangs and ending g up on harder drugs.
All the "Weed is a gateway drug" is only true because kids are being encouraged by the dealers to try other stuff, often free to start. Legal dispensaries will not have that issue.

 

[mummabear]

http://dailyhive.com/grow/opinion-high-not-variation-drunk