Clarification on David's rental situation

[Krandor]

Yes. Good pick up, @MIDisFan! It certainly explains a lot.

yes it does.

 

[MIDisFan]

Has it been confirmed that they refused to pay it, or that they simply haven't paid as of yet. I understand that by the letter of the contract they should have paid that right away, but given the circumstance, I can believe they have a major backlog. If they don't get paid once this is all over with, I'll concede on that issue.

I agree. I hate that business practice. Unfortunately its pretty common. I've had my post on this thread be removed because I discussed a competitor of the boards sponsor.....


That just tells me there was an issue between the company and the board owner. With zero facts, I can't form an informed opinion.



That is fair

Edit: to clarify, my earlier post regarding a competitor of the board sponsor that was deleted was deleted because that company is not allowed to be discussed on this website. The reason why a competitor of one of the board's main sponsor is not allowed to be discussed is not disclosed......the context of my point remains. Businesses deciding to control the message is not unique to Davids and can be seen here...

Comparing a message board deleting a post that violated the rules to deleting negative feedback are two different things. You could have simply removed the company name and still conveyed your point. I agree it's not exclusive to David's and stated as much in my original reply. It's disingenuous at best for a company to do so. As to the bold section, You have been presented with facts that you choose to dismiss. To excuse David's for clearly violating the terms of his contract in the case of the remaining 30% for the renter breaking the agreement, shows that.

 

[McCrae]

You are probably correct. The renter probably should be entitled to a refund, and if challenged, David would probably lose.

The owner is also required to return the 70%. They don't get to make the judgment call about whether they like how Davids is handling things. Whether David returns the cash to the renter or not, that has no bearing on the owner.

Which part of the owners contract with David’s has not been completed to justify any repayment?

 

[RNicole1]

If I file a chargeback on my credit card, will David’s pull my credit offer for good? I want to try a chargeback and if it doesn’t go through, then accept the credit, but I don’t want to start the chargeback and lose any chance of the credit either.

 

[MIDisFan]

If I file a chargeback on my credit card, will David’s pull my credit offer for good? I want to try a chargeback and if it doesn’t go through, then accept the credit, but I don’t want to start the chargeback and lose any chance of the credit either.

I believe it was reported in the other thread that a renter had their voucher rescinded while the dispute was ongoing but was told by David's that it would be reissued if the dispute was sided in David's favor. I have no expertise in the area. Maybe someone could chime in, would rescinding the voucher in the case of the charge back being denied be acceptable to the CC company?

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

The old rental agreement has the same language but refers to “member” instead of “owner”. Later in the same agreement, there is this clause:

“13. This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only.”​

In addition, the Intermediary Agreement between David’s and the owner specifically outlines the status of the points that are being offered for rental. This information is not shared with the renter.

This, again, highlights what I said earlier about the real root of the confusion.

Some would read that statement as: This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only.

While others would maintain: This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only.

Because the renter isn't informed about any of the DVC sausage-making regarding point status, etc., they understandably fall into the second group. Owners who offered points that were going to expire to a broker who DID know the status understandably believed that it was only THOSE points they were on the hook for.

Added to this already murky issue is the question (at least in the original contracts) about whether DVC closing resorts qualifies as the owner cancelling the reservation or causing it to be cancelled by their negligence.

Many owners (again, understandably) feel that they are not responsible for the closure and David's promised them payment of the remaining 30% whether the renter checked-in or not.

Renters were promised a 100% refund as long as they didn't cancel.

So, you have both owners and renters with guarantees from David's that they'll get their money if the other party cancels. The renter didn't cancel and (unless you subscribe to the interpretation that DVC, as the owner's proxy, cancelling is the same as the owner themselves cancelling) the owner didn't cancel.

So both parties now want the money that David's contractually agreed to pay them.

 

[Sandisw]

This, again, highlights what I said earlier about the real root of the confusion.

Some would read that statement as: This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only.

While others would maintain: This is an agreement to rent points that represent accommodations only.

Because the renter isn't informed about any of the DVC sausage-making regarding point status, etc., they understandably fall into the second group. Owners who offered points that were going to expire to a broker who DID know the status understandably believed that it was only THOSE points they were on the hook for.

Added to this already murky issue is the question (at least in the original contracts) about whether DVC closing resorts qualifies as the owner cancelling the reservation or causing it to be cancelled by their negligence.

Many owners (again, understandably) feel that they are not responsible for the closure and David's promised them payment of the remaining 30% whether the renter checked-in or not.

Renters were promised a 100% refund as long as they didn't cancel.

So, you have both owners and renters with guarantees from David's that they'll get their money if the other party cancels. The renter didn't cancel and (unless you subscribe to the interpretation that DVC, as the owner's proxy, cancelling is the same as the owner themselves cancelling) the owner didn't cancel.

So both parties now want the money that David's contractually agreed to pay them.

View attachment 495049

Add to that confusion that even when an owner agrees to refund because they decide to believe they need to because DVCM acted on their behalf...Davids position...the renter still doesn’t get their refund.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

I believe it was reported in the other thread that a renter had their voucher rescinded while the dispute was ongoing but was told by David's that it would be reissued if the dispute was sided in David's favor. I have no expertise in the area. Maybe someone could chime in, would rescinding the voucher in the case of the charge back being denied be acceptable to the CC company?

I will say this for David's... if they are willing to still issue a voucher to a customer who was unsuccessful in their attempt to get a cash refund by reversing the credit card charges, then hats off for that.

I would think that pursuing the chargeback would potentially disqualify someone from getting a voucher. Perhaps he's still legally obligated to provide one, especially if the existence of said voucher is the reason the charge back was ruled in his favor.

 

[MIDisFan]

I will say this for David's... if they are willing to still issue a voucher to a customer who was unsuccessful in their attempt to get a cash refund by reversing the credit card charges, then hats off for that.

I would think that pursuing the chargeback would potentially disqualify someone from getting a voucher. Perhaps he's still legally obligated to provide one, especially if the existence of said voucher is the reason the charge back was ruled in his favor.

He would have to pull the voucher or not allow it's usage while the dispute is ongoing to prevent double dipping. No problem with that. If he won the dispute based on issuing a voucher then rescinded said voucher, that would be beyond shady imo and possibly be grounds for a reversal of the dispute decision. IDK, no experience with that.

 

[cm8]

This makes sense and I can see how individual situations could end up being better. But from a consumer's perspective, now you are talking about spending time to sort through various owners, contracts, and finding the one that fits your needs. Perhaps renters would be willing to do this, but personally it would not be my preference. The nice thing about a broker is they do this for you which is why they started in the first place. They saw a need for matchmaking which saves owners and renters time. *note, I am not saying I would ever use a broker now, but that's mostly because I don't think I will ever rent points again period*

At some point you do have to factor in personal time as an advantage or disadvantage when it comes to savings. Might I get a deal on a site like Ebay? Sure, but now I am having to put in a lot of extra work to stalk listings and in the end I might not even get the item. Sometimes I have the time and can accept the risk. But for me, once I know I want to go on vacation, I want to be able to book my dates and preferred resort quickly. It sounds like what you have described would work best if a renter was extremely flexible as finding an owner with the best terms and resorts options sounds arduous. Honestly I haven't spent a lot of time looking into private owners, so maybe it's easier than it looks, but just a cursory glance at the forum here looks like a lot of work.

Please understand I am not trying to offend owners in any way. Even though I am on the line with a November rental through David's, I hold no ill feelings toward owners. Out of this whole mess I have since realized how naively I entered into a contract that was apparently too vague and now I actually understand the pitfalls of renting. Out of curiosity I was just wondering how the process would work better if most owners end up leaving brokers to rent points privately. My personal observations are that a lot people interested in renting know absolutely nothing. Case in point- the owner who posted above who said someone rented their points through David's in April for October!! (I'm not blaming the owner at all) Honestly I think it's shady that David's took that reservation, but in the end the fault falls completely on the renter for what I can only imagine is absolutely no research. However I do feel that the new contract which promises the voucher is probably enough for new renters to feel safe and therefore I go back to it being sketchy that David's took the reservation considering the messy situation they are in. Regardless it will just be interesting to see if demand stays as high if the process requires a lot more knowledge. Brokers just look easy to consumers

You’re making it waaaaaay to complicated. To make a match only requires you come into the R/T board, follow the rules and then read down to find which resort you seek. It takes minutes to locate an Owner of whatever resort you are looking for.

You will see that the Owner (most) have listed points available, Use Year, dollar wanted per point and how to make it happen. We also ask you to list your 3 or 4 request (resort) and room size and how many people in the party. We then go out and find for you what you tell us. If it’s available, we let you know and then we move to the next level. It’s always up to the Renter to accept or reject the terms in the contract.

We do all the leg work, you just agree to the terms and pay as agreed. It’s that fast. Most of us do it FCFS.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

You’re making it waaaaaay to complicated. To make a match only requires you come into the R/T board, follow the rules and then read down to find which resort you seek. It takes minutes to locate an Owner of whatever resort you are looking for.

You will see that the Owner (most) have listed points available, Use Year, dollar wanted per point and how to make it happen. We also ask you to list your 3 or 4 request (resort) and room size and how many people in the party. We then go out and find for you what you tell us. If it’s available, we let you know and then we move to the next level. It’s always up to the Renter to accept or reject the terms in the contract.

We do all the leg work, you just agree to the terms and pay as agreed. It’s that fast. Most of us do it FCFS.

It's also a lot more transparent than the queueing at the brokers, which is completely opaque to renters.

 

[suemom2kay]

Obviously thats the new contract, but that seems to indicate that the owner rented out a reservation, not points.

yeah.... That's what I said.

From his new and improved contract...

So much arguing.

 

[New Mouse]

Has it been confirmed that they refused to pay it, or that they simply haven't paid as of yet. I understand that by the letter of the contract they should have paid that right away, but given the circumstance, I can believe they have a major backlog. If they don't get paid once this is all over with, I'll concede on that issue.

I agree. I hate that business practice. Unfortunately its pretty common. I've had my post on this thread be removed because I discussed a competitor of the boards sponsor.....


That just tells me there was an issue between the company and the board owner. With zero facts, I can't form an informed opinion.



That is fair

Edit: to clarify, my earlier post regarding a competitor of the board sponsor that was deleted was deleted because that company is not allowed to be discussed on this website. The reason why a competitor of one of the board's main sponsor is not allowed to be discussed is not disclosed......the context of my point remains. Businesses deciding to control the message is not unique to Davids and can be seen here...

So by your logic, the owners could be dealing with a large backlog in their life, so its ok if they dont refund david for an indefinite undetermined period of time....

Id strongly suggest the owners offering david a voucher with similar terms to his own as compensation.

 

[Melodious]

You’re making it waaaaaay to complicated. To make a match only requires you come into the R/T board, follow the rules and then read down to find which resort you seek. It takes minutes to locate an Owner of whatever resort you are looking for.

I rented points through Davids for September and still intend to abide by the agreement. This is only the second time that we have done this so I may explore other options in the future. My question is that both times we booked at 11 months so the problem I could see is if I want something that is hard to get. First, I have to find an owner at my first choice resort. But if that's not available then I have to find an owner at my second choice and so on. Both times we rented through David's, our first choice was a studio at GF which we were told were immediately sold out for our dates. So we asked about other options. A broker seems easier to the renter because they have access to all of the resort options in one stop.

 

[JETSDAD]

I rented points through Davids for September and still intend to abide by the agreement. This is only the second time that we have done this so I may explore other options in the future. My question is that both times we booked at 11 months so the problem I could see is if I want something that is hard to get. First, I have to find an owner at my first choice resort. But if that's not available then I have to find an owner at my second choice and so on. Both times we rented through David's, our first choice was a studio at GF which we were told were immediately sold out for our dates. So we asked about other options. A broker seems easier to the renter because they have access to all of the resort options in one stop.

Many times brokers don't have owners renting out points right at 11 months. There are often long lists of renters waiting on owners to make a reservation even though there is resort availability. If you can find an owner privately they tend to be more willing to get on things immediately at 11 months to secure a reservation rather than you having to wait in a queue.

 

[Melodious]

Many times brokers don't have owners renting out points right at 11 months. There are often long lists of renters waiting on owners to make a reservation even though there is resort availability. If you can find an owner privately they tend to be more willing to get on things immediately at 11 months to secure a reservation rather than you having to wait in a queue.

I don't know if David's was lying to me, but he said that there weren't studio rooms available for GF in the DVC system for the entire week we wanted. It wasn't that he didn't have an owner. We didn't have any problem booking a full week at other resorts at 11 months with him, like Beach Club, Poly, and BLT. *Edited to say that in the future, working directly with an owner might get us the coveted GF studio. It will just be complicated if we don't get it.

This thread has also made me a bit paranoid about my owner canceling so now I'm checking it in MDE all the time

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

I don't know if David's was lying to me, but he said that there weren't studio rooms available for GF in the DVC system for the entire week we wanted. It wasn't that he didn't have an owner. We didn't have any problem booking a full week at other resorts at 11 months with him, like Beach Club, Poly, and BLT. *Edited to say that in the future, working directly with an owner might get us the coveted GF studio. It will just be complicated if we don't get it.

This thread has also made me a bit paranoid about my owner canceling so now I'm checking it in MDE all the time

I'll preface this comment by saying that, although I've had critical things to say about David's on these threads, Im not accusing them of this. But it's certainly possible for any broker to say there's "no availability" when what they really mean is that THEY have no availability for that resort, in order to sway potential renters towards the points they DO have available for rent.

 

[Sandisw]

I don't know if David's was lying to me, but he said that there weren't studio rooms available for GF in the DVC system for the entire week we wanted. It wasn't that he didn't have an owner. We didn't have any problem booking a full week at other resorts at 11 months with him, like Beach Club, Poly, and BLT. *Edited to say that in the future, working directly with an owner might get us the coveted GF studio. It will just be complicated if we don't get it.

This thread has also made me a bit paranoid about my owner canceling so now I'm checking it in MDE all the time

Unless you have things lined up before the 11 month window for December, studios in December, especially first 2 weeks, are pretty much gone at 8 am on the 11 month window at the popular resorts,

So, VGF, BLT, BCV and CCV for sure would indeed be hard to get, Many owners even walk those rooms to ensure they get them.

 

[ScubaCat]

I don't know if David's was lying to me, but he said that there weren't studio rooms available for GF in the DVC system for the entire week we wanted. It wasn't that he didn't have an owner. We didn't have any problem booking a full week at other resorts at 11 months with him, like Beach Club, Poly, and BLT. *Edited to say that in the future, working directly with an owner might get us the coveted GF studio. It will just be complicated if we don't get it.

This thread has also made me a bit paranoid about my owner canceling so now I'm checking it in MDE all the time

I rented out some BCV points for a studio in February (for check-in next January.) I was presented an offer almost instantly after I returned the seller agreement. The demand is definitely there for studios in popular resorts.

Now I get to worry about whether or not I'll get the final 30% along with everyone else in this situation!

 

[fancymouse]

I'll preface this comment by saying that, although I've had critical things to say about David's on these threads, Im not accusing them of this. But it's certainly possible for any broker to say there's "no availability" when what they really mean is that THEY have no availability for that resort, in order to sway potential renters towards the points they DO have available for rent.

Just to be fair- this was not my experiece. I knew the resort and room I wanted and was not flexible on the resort. When you fill out the forms you can put backup resorts, but I chose not to. David's let me know there was availability, but they had no owner that could cover the amount of points (this was at 11 months). They asked me if I wanted to go on a waitlist or get my deposit back. They offered other options, but never pressured me or anything. I had already booked a backup room through Disney, so I told them I would go on a waitlist. They said at any time I could ask for my deposit back and get off the waitlist, so I really had nothing to lose. After about a week on the waitlist they found an owner, so I cancelled the Disney reservation.

I know a lot of people are angry about the current situation, but prior to this I only ever heard glowing reviews of David's. Has that changed? Absolutely, but I am just not sure that the same people who used David's to rent from in the past (or particularly first time renters) are going to go the private route. It is definitely more complicated than the one-stop shop the broker offers. Obviously what could happen is that enough owners leave brokers to rent privately, and renters are left with no options through a broker, but I would just be interested to see how many of those potential renters go (IMO) the more complicated route. Again, I mean no offense to owners. It sounds like a lot of you have been kind and helpful to your renters and this is not a personal attack on you renting your points out, but let's pretend that the situation was reversed and instead of renters finding you, that you had to search want ads and then you had to read/agree to their terms in a "take it or leave it" manner. I think at least some owners would probably say that was too much work and they'd rather gift their points to friends etc. Maybe not I mean brokers only exist because both owners and renters signed up. Obviously owners saw value in the model as well (at least in the past). In the end, I think views on this come from our own subjective experiences with renting. Those rent privately successfully think it's easy, but my experience was through a broker was easy and comparatively the alternative looks daunting. Maybe I am in the minority and that's okay. Good luck to everyone!