Covid And The Rest of Us

[quandrea]

I do understand your worry - honestly I do, as best as anyone who is not directly in the situation can. And the reality is most of us are not. But zero cases at the expense of what Australia is doing? And if Canada had achieved zero cases at one singular point in time, what happens when another case emerges as is inevitable unless severe restrictions are permanent.

Although I do not have anyone of particular risk in my household (DH is 66 but statistically, that's nowhere near a Covid death sentence in and of itself), I have close loved ones in that category in various locations across Canada. To a person, they all feel extremely responsible for their own safety and are taking what they believe to be the necessary degrees of precaution. I'm positive none of them even fathom a complete eradication of the virus based on restrictions alone.

I'm asking this humbly and sincerely, without a hint of snark - what do you personally think should be happening right now?

It’s too late now. Had the response back in the winter been more swift and more complete, with excellent buy in, we may have had a shot at it. The opportunity is gone now.

 

[ronandannette]

It’s too late now. Had the response back in the winter been more swift and more complete, with excellent buy in, we may have had a shot at it. The opportunity is gone now.

Why too late? Apparently Australia believes they can put the genie back in the bottle. Do you not think so too and if not, why?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I think the zero case goal is an admirable one.

Honestly I can understand wanting this. I think the big difference to me is we're not dealing with a virus that will go away (as in cease to exist) so easily. These zero case approaches well they are quite limited and very insular. What I mean by that is the country(ies) who choose this path will be okay for only their country (which is fine). But what about the globe?

The efforts done to make it zero we know they only last so long at this point with the pathway the virus is going. We know the virus can easily worm it's way back or was never truly gone before because the zero case aspect is only going off of known cases which is extremely important to note. And how long can each country go with a zero case approach? Typically it takes time for a vaccine to work around a given population to give the benefits of the vaccine.

And FTR I don't disagree at all that each country or region should be able to take the approach(es) they think will work the best. But neither do I think it's wrong to question if those will work for the globe at large because at the end of the day many countries out there need each other. Short-term creating travel and work bubbles seems reasonable enough. It's the long-term I've been wondering about.

It's really a horrible sounding thing but as a globe we'd be better off it it was like ebola or something like that where it burns itself out so quickly. This thing just doesn't want to do it.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I’m not sure what good a vaccine is really going to do when so many people (half in some places) admit they won’t take it.

 

[ronandannette]

I’m not sure what good a vaccine is really going to do when so many people (half in some places) admit they won’t take it.

I think we'll have to see how it actually goes. So many people, particularly Americans it seems (sorry - no offence intended), are just plain old contentious about everything Covid-related. What any one of us will end up doing or not doing likely can't be predicted by the current rhetoric. For example, how many people who ***** to the high heavens about masks still do put them on when required?

 

[Karin1984]

I’m not sure what good a vaccine is really going to do when so many people (half in some places) admit they won’t take it.

I think the number will be higher when the vaccin is available later. A group is only skeptical because it's a new vaccin and not well tested later. They just don't want to be the first and first see what it does with other people.

Other example, years ago one of my cousins was one of the first to get laser surgery for her eyes. At the time I thought she was taking a huge risk as long term effects were not known back then. Now we do know and getting your eyes lasered is a very common procedure.
With every new invention you have a small group that is at the front of the line, some wait a while, some wait longer, some wait a lot longer, and some will never be persuaded to try something new.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I think we'll have to see how it actually goes. So many people, particularly Americans it seems (sorry - no offence intended), are just plain old contentious about everything Covid-related. What any one of us will end up doing or not doing likely can't be predicted by the current rhetoric. For example, how many people who ***** to the high heavens about masks still do put them on when required?

I think we saw a poll from various countries that was an eye opener - not sure if it was on this thread - but results were fairly consistent. Many people don’t want to be the “first” to take it, they want to see how it goes for a while; to see if others have bad reactions, etc. Human nature, I guess. Apparently HCW will be the guinea pigs without much of a choice.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I think the number will be higher when the vaccin is available later. A group is only skeptical because it's a new vaccin and not well tested later. They just don't want to be the first and first see what it does with other people.

Exactly.

Other example, years ago one of my cousins was one of the first to get laser surgery for her eyes. At the time I thought she was taking a huge risk as long term effects were not known back then. Now we do know and getting your eyes lasered is a very common procedure.
With every new invention you have a small group that is at the front of the line, some wait a while, some wait longer, some wait a lot longer, and some will never be persuaded to try something new.

The questions become, how long of a wait will there be for people to feel “comfortable”? This will likely depend a lot on anecdotal evidence and what the news chooses to show, so that remains to be seen. But what happens in the meantime with the people who will not take it? As McKenzie said, even if some countries manage to contain it, what happens when travel opens up again? We may be getting some of the answers to these questions by watching what is happening with schools reopening.

 

[Karin1984]

The questions become, how long of a wait will there be for people to feel “comfortable”? This will likely depend a lot on anecdotal evidence and what the news chooses to show, so that remains to be seen. But what happens in the meantime with the people who will not take it? As McKenzie said, even if some countries manage to contain it, what happens when travel opens up again? We may be getting some of the answers to these questions by watching what is happening with schools reopening.

Most likely countries will decide to open up to certain countries based on their vaccin policy and how many people have it. Maybe it will be a requirement to show you have had your vaccination before you are allowed to enter.

 

[quandrea]

Why too late? Apparently Australia believes they can put the genie back in the bottle. Do you not think so too and if not, why?
[/QUOTE
The numbers are too high and we have community spread. There is no going back at this point, only forward. Early in, if we could have diagnosed, quarantined, isolated contacts, we had a short at eradication. I’m talking January.

Our population won’t submit to the lockdowns that Australia is imposing. Additionally, with our levels of community spread, and given that we are not an island nation, aiming for zero community spread at this point is futile and unrealistic. It was something that needed to be reached for months ago and even then may have been unattainable.

Australia is aiming for zero community spread. They acknowledge there will be imported cases that will require attention. I know there have been a few protests and the pp said people are not happy, but it seems that they are hopefully looking ahead to Christmas. Difficult to judge what the real mood is from across the world.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Most likely countries will decide to open up to certain countries based on their vaccin policy and how many people have it. Maybe it will be a requirement to show you have had your vaccination before you are allowed to enter.

Possibly. But there are a lot of economic and other factors to consider. I think it will be very complicated, at best.

 

[TLSnell1981]

It’s too late now. Had the response back in the winter been more swift and more complete, with excellent buy in, we may have had a shot at it. The opportunity is gone now.

You mean like in Wuhan? Don't believe if was possible after it left that area.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Possibly. But there are a lot of economic and other factors to consider. I think it will be very complicated, at best.

I believe too many are putting to much hope into a vaccine.

 

[ronandannette]

Most likely countries will decide to open up to certain countries based on their vaccin policy and how many people have it. Maybe it will be a requirement to show you have had your vaccination before you are allowed to enter.

This is actually very possible and viable in practice. Many countries already require proof of vaccination against a variety of tropical diseases before you can enter. AFAIK, proof must be presented with one's Passport to even board a flight to those countries.

Our population won’t submit to the lockdowns that Australia is imposing. Additionally, with our levels of community spread, and given that we are not an island nation, aiming for zero community spread at this point is futile and unrealistic. It was something that needed to be reached for months ago and even then may have been unattainable.

Australia is aiming for zero community spread. They acknowledge there will be imported cases that will require attention. I know there have been a few protests and the pp said people are not happy, but it seems that they are hopefully looking ahead to Christmas. Difficult to judge what the real mood is from across the world.

Yes, in reality it would never have been. It is simply not an attainable goal - period, given the fact that there are and will continue to be a vast number of asymptomatic cases.

I believe too many are putting to much hope into a vaccine.

Well, that depends on exactly what we are "hoping" for. If we are looking for vaccine to erradicate Covid from the face of the earth - no, that won't happen. But if our hope is that with the development of a safe and reliable vaccine, Covid becomes one of those ubiquitous diseases that we protect ourselves from while returning life completely to normal world-wide? That is a very realistic possibility and should be the ultimate goal, IMO.

 

[bavaria]

But what future is there with a zero case goal if we don’t get a vaccine? Or even a vaccine that’s only as effective as say the flu vaccine? Covid isn’t going anywhere. It’s here. If you succeed at getting 0 cases, you can never allow international travel or if will be right back. It doesn’t make logical sense to me.

I've been travelling more recently and I can say that I am really pleased with how Germany handled things. Life has to continue. It's fully unrealistic to keep borders closed and people confined. Perhaps it is our collective history, but travel bans to prohibit movement of people within, and outside of, their country are even worse than what occurred during the DDR. (At least then 'behaved' people could travel to other eastern bloc countries or even get a cabin on the Love Boat cruise to nowhere)

I wasn't going to say much, but the restrictions listed earlier actually really upset me. I mentioned earlier the impact on people who are not confined with a partner, or family, and the difference that can make. The 'solution' to allow contact with one person, or their partner, isn't a solution. Not everyone has a regular partner; people do have casual sex, and the ridiculous expectations to use 'a wall', or better to continue to only self pleasure, are only making people more frustrated.

Imagine you are someone who does not have a partner, and is used to engaging and does have sex with more than one partner. It's a totally common and normal thing, and now the message is not to do so, or outright preventing that from happening because state or provincial borders are closed too. No wonder people are getting fed up. First we were told 'flatten the curve'. We did. Then the message was that a vaccine would not come in 2020 as we were told, but maybe next year or even some messages saying 2-3 years. Then the goal shifted to 0 cases.

For some of you, your lives didn't change much, and maybe you cannot see that this is having significant impact on many people because they happen to live differently than you do. (And some of you said months ago that your life didn't change much, but you have the empathy and understanding and have expressed that)

For many of us, our lives have been changed so significantly. Today I said 'two weeks' to a Lufthansa staffer. She said 'pardon me?' and I reminded her that when she shooed me out of the last lounge to close in March, she said 'see you in two weeks' and I said to her 'maybe three'. Well, that 2-3 weeks is now being messaged as 2-3 years, and the reality is that without some end goal, it becomes difficult to continue to support such measures.

Having said all that, in Germany we've somewhat moved on and are back on the environment; I'm pleased to say that I attended a rally to save the rain forest today hosted by teenagers. Other than masks in shops and on transit, things are as 'normal 'as they can be. The lack of tourists for Oktoberfest is of course a huge economic blow however (although there are as always many Italian tourists, and even I think some Canadians, but they cannot make up for the crowds of Americans and Middle Eastern tourists who spend so significantly)

 

[bavaria]

Circling back to the Vitamin D theory, as there are now some peer reviewed studies on this....

The first discussion at the cancer intake I attended talked about the importance of vitamin D, and how most of us in 'northern' countries are severely deficient. The relationship between Vitamin D insufficiency and cancer was discussed, and we were all encouraged to get tested and start taking the needed dose. I've been doing that, as well as spending a good part of my recent years in hot sunny places. I have no idea if that helps with COVID, but would be interesting to see cancer as a comorbidity with COVID (but then difficult to track as there are so many stages, etc)

And back to the 'high risk' discussion - pretty much my entire family falls into 'high risk'. Perhaps that makes me care less about COVID (because I managed to survive some bad cancer experiences), or maybe it makes me realise that there are many other things which can kill us.

I know many people in their 80's and 90's who are fed up and frustrated, and say very clearly that they do not want to live out their last few months or years with heavy restrictions, unable to see loved ones, or use the physical mobility they have left to enjoy themselves.

 

[anthony2k7]

I’m not sure what good a vaccine is really going to do when so many people (half in some places) admit they won’t take it.

Plus may only be 50% successful, and only last a few months where it is successful.

This is with us for years to come it seems.

 

[MommyinHonduras]

What I mean by that is the country(ies) who choose this path will be okay for only their country (which is fine). But what about the globe?

Or island tried to stay at 0, and it has devastated the people here. We managed it until end of May when a boat snuck people over in the cover of night and ended up having asymptomatic carriers. We are still clamped down with cases rising and people is much worse health than 6 months ago, surviving on donated bags of beans and rice and stress.

This is actually very possible and viable in practice. Many countries already require proof of vaccination against a variety of tropical diseases before you can enter. AFAIK, proof must be presented with one's Passport to even board a flight to those countries.

I agree for known vaccines that have been tested to work for immunity, I am not sure how soon they can push that mandate so early in the process with so much unknown. Looking at all the polio issues going on in Africa should give us pause when we think we know it all too. the news is reporting wild polio has been eradicated, while the cases of those who get polio from the vaccines not so much. https://www.theguardian.com/global-...-spreads-in-africa-after-defeat-of-wild-virus

 

[NFLDERS]

The thoughts I'd had to offer here disapated when a news story broke of the numbers visiting Niagara Falls, Ontario.

 

[EMom]

Or island tried to stay at 0, and it has devastated the people here. We managed it until end of May when a boat snuck people over in the cover of night and ended up having asymptomatic carriers. We are still clamped down with cases rising and people is much worse health than 6 months ago, surviving on donated bags of beans and rice and stress.


I agree for known vaccines that have been tested to work for immunity, I am not sure how soon they can push that mandate so early in the process with so much unknown. Looking at all the polio issues going on in Africa should give us pause when we think we know it all too. the news is reporting wild polio has been eradicated, while the cases of those who get polio from the vaccines not so much. https://www.theguardian.com/global-...-spreads-in-africa-after-defeat-of-wild-virus

It should be noted that the polio vaccine used was OPV, which has not been used in the US for decades.