Poll: Are you going to buy at Riviera

[Aussie RJ]

Holly, are we the same group of people hotly discussing the aggressive MF increase, the point chart reallocations, the petty restrictions? Just... yesterday??

Only here because we love the product. My mates and family think I’m nuts!

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

No wonder DVD/DD has been so brazen with its recent effort to increase profits as no one seems to care anymore.

LAX

They definitely killed any potential direct purchase interest for me - especially at any new resort. I'm sure we'll stay at Riviera sometime and enjoy it but I don't like the restrictions. I wish people the best of luck that things will go they way think or hope they will.

 

[LAX]

They definitely killed any potential direct purchase interest for me - especially at any new resort. I'm sure we'll stay at Riviera sometime and enjoy it but I don't like the restrictions.

I guess it's not so much "no one seems to care anymore." It's more like "many seem not to care anymore." If DRR turns out to be a home run with all these restrictions, I can't imagine what DVD/DD will trot out next.

LAX

 

[Madame]

I’m way too risk-averse to purchase at DRR. It looks gorgeous, but it’s giving me a VGF vibe & I didn’t really like VGF that much.

Sitting here thinking, maybe we are seeing division along the lines of those who are looking to DVC for a timeshare experience vs a hotel experience. I think that was what was missing at VGF for me, but could be off base. Anyone have any thoughts?

 

[BroganMc]

I can just explain my motivation for voting No. I haven't been interested in buying direct since VGF came online. Well that's when my interest started waning. Poly destroyed it completely. DVC raised direct prices too much and delivered an inferior product. This was most evident in Poly with their small studios-only and overpriced bungalows. No 1bedrooms, really? No lock-offs? No luxurious 3bedroom Grand Villas yet still charging a triple figure price for points? Surely DVD was playing me for a fool. That's not how I roll.

I added onto my Marriott ownership instead. They're expensive but at least they are matching quality for dollar.

My last direct purchase was a small add-on for BLT. I've since bought resale at SSR and BLT. I already owned direct contracts at each, so these new ones just increased my Home Resort Booking ability. My BWV ownership is 75% resale with a tiny 25 points direct. All purchased before any restrictions.

Riviera doesn't interest me in the slightest. I own 100 BWV points. That's more than enough to get a Standard View room during F&W or NYE. The rooms are smallish, but the location is sufficient. I can walk to EPCOT or DHS. Why would I want a resort that relies solely on some form of transportation? That's one of the reasons I don't own at VGF or Poly. That transportation breaks down or gets backed up. Of 3 consecutive stays at BLT, the monorail to EPCOT broke down each time I wanted to go there.

I do think the Resale restrictions are going to have an unintended consequence on sales. Buyers are more savvy now. Knowing they can't dispose of their contracts for top dollar considering how much DVD is charging for it will hurt interest.

IMHO the last really good direct deal was for BLT. I just wish I had purchased more at the time. I've come to adore that resort more than any other. Fortunately my resale contracts put me ad a comfortable level.

*I have a resale BLT contract in the process of ROFR. I'm hoping Disney doesn't snap it up, but I've heard they've been doing that a lot lately. BLT is a hot property for them.

 

[TexasChick123]

Will they though?

One reason small contracts sell at a premium is simply that the total cost is lower, so people just don't care. When you're only buying 50 points, an extra $5/point doesn't really add up to much, so buyers are less likely to quibble. That's not going to change.

But very small contracts are generally only really attractive in the first place as an add-on. That's especially true with higher point charts. If 50 points only buys you two nights a year in a studio, can't be combined with your existing points to stay elsewhere, and might not even be combinable with your existing points to stay at Rivera (if your existing points are post-restriction resale), is that 50 point contract still going to look appealing?

Maybe it won't have a big impact. There will still be existing Rivera owners who want a small add-on contract, or owners with qualified points who maybe only want an 11-month booking advantage at Rivera once every few years. But I do think the dynamic around small contracts changes a bit when point values are high and the points can't be combined for use elsewhere. How much remains to be seen.

If nothing else, it does still let you offload points in smaller chunks if you want to downsize without getting out completely.

This was a huge consideration when breaking the contracts into smaller amounts as well. Regarding people not wanting to add 50 points here or there at the higher point chart resorts, that demand is alive and well. People are ALWAYS looking to add on 50 points at all the resorts. A lot of people have already said maybe they will add on 50 points (direct or resale) to stay in a studio every other year. Again, I just paid $165pp for VGC resale points, and I got "a deal" for today's market. The way I look at it, I bought all my home resorts with no intention of staying anywhere else with those points. The flexibility to stay elsewhere at 7 months is definitely nice, but it isn't necessary for the resorts I own. Also, this restriction may make it darn near impossible for non-owners to stay there at 7 months.

I thought so too but actually I've ended up with pool/garden view twice and they've actually been 2 of my favorite rooms there. The standard view points are great but I enjoyed my pool/garden rooms a lot.

I have become very miserly with my points. We only get standard views even at BWV.

No wonder DVD/DD has been so brazen with its recent effort to increase profits as no one seems to care anymore.

LAX

Trust me, I care. It just that for the reasons I stated above, I am of a completely different mindset about trading out at 7 months. I didn't pay direct prices to trade out at 7 months. The resale price will be something to watch, but it is always a gamble depending on what they build.

I’m way too risk-adverse to purchase at DRR. It looks gorgeous, but it’s giving me a VGF vibe & I didn’t really like VGF that much.

Sitting here thinking, maybe we are seeing division along the lines of those who are looking to DVC for a timeshare experience vs a hotel experience. I think that was what was missing at VGF for me, but could be off base. Anyone have any thoughts?

VGF is my favorite DVC. I agree that there are a lot of parallels with DRR and VGF. That's why I bought there. I am a firm believer that DVC is smart by building properties that touch on everyone's preferences. There are other resorts that I cannot possibly imagine staying at let alone owning, but their owners love them.

To everyone, this is not a financially responsible decision as no timeshare is. Some timeshare purchases are more and some are less risky than others. My parents own a timeshare that is completely sold out and has been for years. Properties come up on the resale market very rarely, and they are very expensive. They cannot stay at any other property with their points unless they pay to trade them into the Registry Collection which is a PITA and still not easy to trade. My point is that while this is new for DVC, it is not new for the industry. I don't like it either, but we bought DRR because of the contract length, the resort, the gondolas, and access to Epcot and HS. You may not want to buy there, and you shouldn't if you feel that way. Those of us who have bought at DRR are doing it because that's where we want to stay, and we're willing to take on the risk of the unknowns. I always say that other people can spend money the way that they want to because it is their money and not mine.

 

[AdamsMum]

can't be combined with your existing points to stay elsewhere, and might not even be combinable with your existing points to stay at Rivera (if your existing points are post-restriction resale)

\

Yikes! I hadn't even thought of not being able to combine your resale points with other home resorts at 7 months.

Still I don't think we'll see the impact for several years. Maybe it'll be such a fantastic resort that people won't want to sell their points, maybe rent them when they can't use them, the gondolas should help with that. Unless DVD starts rummaging around in the rental market.

 

[kboo]

Riviera doesn't interest me in the slightest. I own 100 BWV points. That's more than enough to get a Standard View room during F&W or NYE. The rooms are smallish, but the location is sufficient. I can walk to EPCOT or DHS.

I have a slight regret we didn't buy BWV back in 2017, when we could get it for under $100pp. I am pretty sure that if we owned BWV already, I wouldn't be interested in Riv either. But when BCV is selling resale for at least $140 and BWV is hovering around $120, with the contract length, ROFR and resale restrictions, I may as well try to get something shiny and new and not have to deal with ROFR issues. I'm not as young as a lot of you here, but I hope to still be going to WDW in 2043, maybe with a grandkid.

I really think Riviera and its price point were aimed at younger buyers who don't already own at BWV or BCV. That's part of the reason their direct prices are so high, too. Makes it easier to sell Riviera direct.

I have become very miserly with my points. We only get standard views even at BWV.

Was there a time when you were ever *not* miserly about your points? I would rather stay an extra night in a standard view than have an upgraded view. When we rented points, we had a BLT LV, and since we bought, it's been standard all the way (and very nice views nonetheless). Same with VGF.

 

[gluestickgirl]

we're a hard no. I'm excited about the skyliner, the rooms look fine... but I hate CBR with a flaming passion and have no desire to have a view of THAT off my balcony.

 

[skier_pete]

Was there a time when you were ever *not* miserly about your points? I would rather stay an extra night in a standard view than have an upgraded view. When we rented points, we had a BLT LV, and since we bought, it's been standard all the way (and very nice views nonetheless). Same with VGF.

Well, there's a reason the low point rooms get occupied first - we do the same thing. We've stayed in a Boardwalk view room and a Standard View room that looked out on the drop off in front of the hotel, and I'll take the standard view room for 30% less points every day unless it was a real special occasion.

 

[Phatscott25]

I just bought some points. The look of the resort, the length of the contract, and the access to Epcot and HS make this a good fit for us. I wish the point requirements were lower, but it is what it is. We broke down our purchase into 3 smaller contracts in the event we ever want to downsize. I'm not too terribly worried about the resale restrictions because we are going with 3x smaller contracts rather than one large one.

Can agree with all the reasons why you bought and that's why I did as well. I also broke my 3 contracts into smaller ones just in case.

 

[Phatscott25]

VGF is my favorite DVC. I agree that there are a lot of parallels with DRR and VGF. That's why I bought there. I am a firm believer that DVC is smart by building properties that touch on everyone's preferences. There are other resorts that I cannot possibly imagine staying at let alone owning, but their owners love them.

To everyone, this is not a financially responsible decision as no timeshare is. Some timeshare purchases are more and some are less risky than others. My parents own a timeshare that is completely sold out and has been for years. Properties come up on the resale market very rarely, and they are very expensive. They cannot stay at any other property with their points unless they pay to trade them into the Registry Collection which is a PITA and still not easy to trade. My point is that while this is new for DVC, it is not new for the industry. I don't like it either, but we bought DRR because of the contract length, the resort, the gondolas, and access to Epcot and HS. You may not want to buy there, and you shouldn't if you feel that way. Those of us who have bought at DRR are doing it because that's where we want to stay, and we're willing to take on the risk of the unknowns. I always say that other people can spend money the way that they want to because it is their money and not mine.

Amen!

 

[LAX]

While I don't think DVD would have any trouble selling DRR, I am somewhat perplexed by how some of the supposedly more educated owners here (vs. the pixie-dusted park goers on a tour) are diving head first as soon as it goes on sale. I get that what other people do with their money is none of my business. I also get that people buy at DRR because they want to stay there for the next 50 years. But, it seems like most now don't remember how DVD tried to screw members with the point reallocation/lock off premium and how DVD is on a mission to push resale buyers off a proverbial cliff. I really don't understand how anyone can still have any faith in DVD on "doing the right thing" in 10-15 years. Perhaps some of you won't care if your DRR points will only get you half the number of nights in 10 years. Or that your MFs more than double in 5 years. Because it's just another timeshare, and you shouldn't expect not to lose your shirt since it's not supposed to be a financially responsible decision to begin with.

LAX

 

[Mumof4mice]

Was there a time when you were ever *not* miserly about your points? I would rather stay an extra night in a standard view than have an upgraded view. When we rented points, we had a BLT LV, and since we bought, it's been standard all the way (and very nice views nonetheless). Same with VGF.

Well, there's a reason the low point rooms get occupied first - we do the same thing. We've stayed in a Boardwalk view room and a Standard View room that looked out on the drop off in front of the hotel, and I'll take the standard view room for 30% less points every day unless it was a real special occasion.

Same here. I never voluntarily pay for views. We go as far as using our VGF points as our go-to sleep around points to get away from the VGF point chart!

 

[Aussie RJ]

I think the resort itself looks great. I’m also sure Disney will get the gondola system right. In theory I should be able to transport my family to HS faster over the gondola than the boat from the Beach Club. But at roughly $11.80 per point (depending on incentives at buy in) and what I see as point eating charts for 1bdr’s, it a dam expensive resort. My opinion is it brings a BCV or BWV resale option back to making economic sense.

 

[RamblinWreck]

The more I see, the more I want to buy into the resort. But I think if/when I do, it will be via resale in a few years.

If the resale prices are even half as enticing as some people guess they might be, I'll be all over it.

 

[TexasChick123]

The more I see, the more I want to buy into the resort. But I think if/when I do, it will be via resale in a few years.

If the resale prices are even half as enticing as some people guess they might be, I'll be all over it.

I think it will be a good resale for people who only want to stay at RR with those points. That’s how I treat most of my points. I do see the restriction as a negative, but I am sure there is some kind of trading fee coming. It’ll probably be a fee you pay when you need it. Many other timeshares are already doing this. You pay a fee (a few hundred dollars per year when you want it), and it allows you to use your points at other resorts. It stinks to have to pay for something if you buy via resale that we were getting for free before, but they are monetizing something that is highly sought after. I don’t like it at all, but I understand why they’re doing it from a financial aspect. :/

 

[skier_pete]

While I don't think DVD would have any trouble selling DRR, I am somewhat perplexed by how some of the supposedly more educated owners here (vs. the pixie-dusted park goers on a tour) are diving head first as soon as it goes on sale. I get that what other people do with their money is none of my business. I also get that people buy at DRR because they want to stay there for the next 50 years. But, it seems like most now don't remember how DVD tried to screw members with the point reallocation/lock off premium and how DVD is on a mission to push resale buyers off a proverbial cliff. I really don't understand how anyone can still have any faith in DVD on "doing the right thing" in 10-15 years. Perhaps some of you won't care if your DRR points will only get you half the number of nights in 10 years. Or that your MFs more than double in 5 years. Because it's just another timeshare, and you shouldn't expect not to lose your shirt since it's not supposed to be a financially responsible decision to begin with.

LAX

SO - not saying I am going to buy at Riviera - but I DO think there are rational reasons to buy at Riviera, but in my mind all the following would have to apply.

1) You like what you see of the resort.
2) You want an Epcot and/or DHS area resort.
3) You want a longer lifetime than BWV/BCV gives you.
4) You want member benefits.
5) You feel the likelyhood of needing to sell in the near future (5-10 years) is small.
And here's the biggest one:
6) You can afford the extra money.

For me - 6 is a killer for just about any new resort to get enough points to be able to stay there for any length of time. I already have member benefits through my AKV contract, and I already own some points at BWV, so no real need for another Epcot resort. I may eventually get some more points, but I don't think even all things being equal DRR would be my first choice, and especially in this case WITHOUT all things being equal. My only thinking was if DRR resale costs drop low enough I would consider it as a single-resort use contract - but even though I think the resale restriction WILL have an impact on resale prices, I think it will be at least 2-3 years after it sells out before we REALLY see what that affect is. Initially I think there will be so few contracts on the market that the price will still remain pretty high. It's a big resort though - and I think eventually those contracts will be or lower tier due to the restrictions but maybe not as low as I originally thought - now I think it could stay on par with SSR and AKV. The longer contract and location will buoy it a bit - I think reflections resale will be lower because the location won't be as favorable.

 

[crvetter]

I think it will be a good resale for people who only want to stay at RR with those points. That’s how I treat most of my points. I do see the restriction as a negative, but I am sure there is some kind of trading fee coming. It’ll probably be a fee you pay when you need it. Many other timeshares are already doing this. You pay a fee (a few hundred dollars per year when you want it), and it allows you to use your points at other resorts. It stinks to have to pay for something if you buy via resale that we were getting for free before, but they are monetizing something that is highly sought after. I don’t like it at all, but I understand why they’re doing it from a financial aspect. :/

Yeah that fee if created 1) revenue for DVC and 2) remove any arbitrage there is from buying "cheap" points to stay at expensive resorts. I think DVC (right or wrong) did it for both of those reasons. Essentially DVC is saying (if they do this) they feel the resale prices for certain resorts are undervalued when considering their access to the 7 month window at other resorts (cheaper still when considering you might have to bump up view or sometimes even room size). This is actually been my view for why this did this, too many direct buyers saw resale buyers saying they did this, so DVC saw the flaw in the market prices (which they viewed as hurting their direct prices) and decided to close that flaw by exercising its position as the market maker. Generally in a free market arbitrage goes away naturally but sometimes it doesn't when the market participants are smaller group.

So I think if you own resale at a resort that is in demand your fee to trade will be cheaper than a resort that isn't in demand. But what sucks is then DVC can use this not to only give equal footing across all resorts but can increase that fee across the board to create revenue. That is where their method of market making is problematic.

I'm with your view point that DRR will have desirability to a degree with those that want to stay there. I personally think at worse it will be on parity with were SSR is now. SSR has access to the 7 month window; however, DRR offsets that loss with better transportation and all rooms under a single roof, and much larger rooms.

 

[Bing Showei]

I am somewhat perplexed by how some of the supposedly more educated owners here (vs. the pixie-dusted park goers on a tour) are diving head first as soon as it goes on sale.

As one of the more vocal opponents of the reallocation/new restrictions and how that represented the ability and willingness on Disney’s part to make money at the expense of the membership, I’m not going to lie; when the opportunity to buy into DRR became a reality, I was back to my pre-Jan19-restrictions/pre-retracted-reallocation self. As ELMC astutely put it, it became a head vs. heart thing. And my heart is so close to having the upper hand.

Disney, in every way, taps into the joy center part of my brain and has since I first went to Disneyland as a wide eyed six-year-old. Today, I buy the $15 flashing balloon within a balloon because I see those same wide-eyes on my six-year-old. There is a joy there that is fun to give in to (Amex bill hangover notwithstanding).

So when that video of the model room tour was posted, and I had a glimpse of the nice new bathroom, the VGF-esque finishings, that neato Murphy bed, my family was suddenly riding in a gondola to a soundtrack of the Turtles’ “So Happy Together.” I had a serious conversation with my wife about buying in. She didn’t care about any of the financial logistics, or the minutiae of resale risks, she just loved the idea of staying at the new resort which “looks great!” We both work really hard and can afford it, so why not?

Hook. Line. Sinker.

But the sobering thing for me was the point chart (even more so than the dues, which I agree will be par for the course in a couple of years). We’ve seen that Disney is prepared to use the point charts to generate capital at the expense of the broader membership. It isn’t enough that we buy in, pay dues, now the increased breakage “to address membership demand” through reallocation is in play.

Disney showed its hand with the retracted reallocation. As soon as the point charts post-selling out became changeable, PVB studio costs went up to “balance demand.” Presently CCV studios can’t be priced too aggressively against BRV studios when selling points direct on the same resort property, so the Cabins sit around available a few weeks out, most times of the year, and studios are walked year round. You can guess what I think will happen after CCV sells out.

As I look at DRR charts more carefully. I see that pattern continuing. 1BRs are priced more than twice the cost of studios, and in some sesasons 1BRs are only 23% less than a 2BR. This suggests to me that the point chart is set up beautifully for DVD to tee off of it, and then for DVCMC to “address membership demands” once it is sold out. While there is some insulation with dedicated units, studios will go up in price, as they will be really high in demand, offset perhaps by a slight decrease in GVs to address the dedicated units.

1BRs are a terrible “value” and as it is most owners will buy small, and DVCers as a whole are frugal with points, studios (which again sleeps 5) will book up quickly, creating an inordinate supply of 1BRs (from breaking up a lockoff), and this will create an imbalance that will conveniently be addressed post-sell-out courtesy of a member-centric reallocation.

I don’t see Disney management doing anything in the membership’s best interest without there being a benefit to the bottom line. I think DRR is an experiment of how far they can leverage that acces to the joy center of my brain. For now, I’ve decided not to buy in because I don’t want to be party to Disney continuing down that path.

Am I missing out on buying in at the ground level to a resort I might actually like and hold onto for 50 years? Maybe? Probably. But I owe it to my soapbox to sit this one out for now*.

*Bing reserves the right to be a complete hypocrite and buy in secret should the economy take a dive and free cruises are back on the table.