Trust points?

[Sandisw]

If all trust owners have equal access to all trust resorts...

Might trust resale prices be much lower than we have ever seen? Here is what I am thinking. Trust resale buyer will only be able to stay at their resort, but they will eventually compete with tens of millions of points from all direct trust buyers.

Also, might many families run into problems? Many cannot book 11 months in advance, but can book during the 7+ window. If they buy trust points at a popular resort, they may never be able to stay at the resort they purchased trust points.

It may impact resale values. In terms with booking, that will be something for a buyer to understand.

It exists right now though for those who don’t book early in the window.

 

[sndral]

In looking at the RTU Trust documents filed w/ OC relating to the cabins a couple of items caught my attention - the first being they have gone w/ the same company that Marriott uses as their independent trustee, which is concerning to me, I certainly hope DVC’s trust product d/n evolve into the same type product Marriott offers.
The second is that in Section 4.2 b they refer to fixed weeks & to “special season preference” I’m not sure what that means - do they mean a special type of fixed week, for example you are buying the week of the Disney marathon or Thanksgiving every year, rather than fixed week 1 (when the marathon usually is) or fixed week 47 (when Thanksgiving usually, but not always, is.) Or could this be entirely different - like a new booking priority for the ‘special season’ of the first 2 weeks of December, for example?
My third concern is regarding availability, I’m not interested in the cabins, so a one off different ownership model for them is of no concern to me personally, however, if I was interested in the Poly I’d be watching very closely, if there’s 11 month access for all Trust owners at all Trust owned properties the competition for some villas at some times of year will be insane. & if this evolves into a Marriott type model where the Trust acquires an ownership % in the legacy resorts & enables Trust owners access to book at 11 months in those legacy resorts, all bets are off. I don’t claim to be an expert in Florida statutory construction, but even if the current version of the statutes creates issues w/ putting %s of units rather than full units into the trust (& I’m not sure they do - but have not yet done any research into case law interpreting the statutory language) the legislature can amend statutes.

 

[Sandisw]

In looking at the RTU Trust documents filed w/ OC relating to the cabins a couple of items caught my attention - the first being they have gone w/ the same company that Marriott uses as their independent trustee, which is concerning to me, I certainly hope DVC’s trust product d/n evolve into the same type product Marriott offers.
The second is that in Section 4.2 b they refer to fixed weeks & to “special season preference” I’m not sure what that means - do they mean a special type of fixed week, for example you are buying the week of the Disney marathon or Thanksgiving every year, rather than fixed week 1 (when the marathon usually is) or fixed week 47 (when Thanksgiving usually, but not always, is.) Or could this be entirely different - like a new booking priority for the ‘special season’ of the first 2 weeks of December, for example?
My third concern is regarding availability, I’m not interested in the cabins, so a one off different ownership model for them is of no concern to me personally, however, if I was interested in the Poly I’d be watching very closely, if there’s 11 month access for all Trust owners at all Trust owned properties the competition for some villas at some times of year will be insane. & if this evolves into a Marriott type model where the Trust acquires an ownership % in the legacy resorts & enables Trust owners access to book at 11 months in those legacy resorts, all bets are off. I don’t claim to be an expert in Florida statutory construction, but even if the current version of the statutes creates issues w/ putting %s of units rather than full units into the trust (& I’m not sure they do - but have not yet done any research into case law interpreting the statutory language) the legislature can amend statutes.

I think one thing about Marriot that I read, and maybe wrong, is many of the units from legacy came from weeks based ownership.

Those are much different than points based because that contract has a specific room for specific dates and that can be declared into a trust association pretty easy.

Our resorts are not like that. Our interest is not tied to any one room on any specific day so it would be virtually impossible for DVD to add rooms to the trust since they can’t just pull whatever rooms they want.

 

[Huskerpaul]

I don’t believe they can because they have to add resort property to it and that property can’t be only part of a unit that is owned by anyone else.

I own a share of Unit 11 at VGF, which consistently of 101 rooms. They declare any of the rooms to the trust because they already exist in the VGF property.

They will only be able to do it when they own 100% of any unit from the current resorts

I don't think so. DVC is a deed based product. As an owner I can add that deed to my trust now. Why would it be any different for a deed owned by DVCI?

They just have to track how many points the trust owns at each resort and allow access to the trust points owners to reserve only those points owned by the trust.

 

[sndral]

I think one thing about Marriot that I read, and maybe wrong, is many of the units from legacy came from weeks based ownership.

Those are much different than points based because that contract has a specific room for specific dates and that can be declared into a trust association pretty easy.

Our resorts are not like that. Our interest is not tied to any one room on any specific day so it would be virtually impossible for DVD to add rooms to the trust since they can’t just pull whatever rooms they want.

I agree the DVC model is definitely different from Marrott’s. However, I believe that w/ Marriott that weeks based ownership is what gives deeded owners booking priority over Trust point owners. Whereas, if DVC can put a % of a legacy unit into the trust (much like we own a % of a unit) because the statute does not expressly forbid that, or the legislature amends the statute to allow it, then we original deeded owners are in worse shape than Marriott deeded owners & we’d face increased booking competition during home resort priority. I’m not predicting this will happen, I’m just not ruling it out long term either.

 

[theMoreDisneytheBetter]

How would the hypothetical 25% ownership of Riviera work? Is it 25% of any one day or 25% over the course of the year. Meaning if everyone wanted to book the first 2 weeks of December could the trust owners theoretically take every available room, leaving only summer (a less desirable time) for direct and resale owners? Because the competition to book popular dates and resorts will be fierce within the trust, so I’m wondering how insulated everyone else will be.

 

[Sandisw]

I don't think so. DVC is a deed based product. As an owner I can add that deed to my trust now. Why would it be any different for a deed owned by DVCI?

They just have to track how many points the trust owns at each resort and allow access to the trust points owners to reserve only those points owned by the trust.

Because you are not a developer who created this to sell timeshares under a timeshare estate plan.

The documebts filed explain the workings of this trust…and they must add property first because they can sell access to it and that property must be defined.

 

[Sandisw]

How would the hypothetical 25% ownership of Riviera work? Is it 25% of any one day or 25% over the course of the year. Meaning if everyone wanted to book the first 2 weeks of December could the trust owners theoretically take every available room, leaving only summer (a less desirable time) for direct and resale owners? Because the competition to book popular dates and resorts will be fierce within the trust, so I’m wondering how insulated everyone else will be.

If we are talking about the current units thst have not yet been declared to RIV, then those would simply be trust property if they wanted to do this and it would mean a different bucket of rooms. Whatever those rooms are would be what the trust owners have access to.

If you are talking about declared rooms, then this is why I don’t think the trust can include rooms that are already part of a current association and vacation plan.

I know Marriott’s model comes up but I don’t believe this trust has been set up the same way as that. And, Marriott has a lot more inventory, may sell and declare units differently, and may actual own whole units that they could intermix with their other systems.

Meaning, the DVC trust, because there are only 16 current resorts, all which were points based, may have been created with different terms of use.

 

[maui22]

It exists right now though for those who don’t book early in the window.

Agree there is already some issue. However, the person who can't book at 10 months knows it was someone who is paying dues for their resort.

Seems unlikely the trust combines dues from all trust properties because of resale being restricted to the resort trust home resort they buy at. One way I would buy a resale for a popular trust resort is if it's a favorite week.

 

[Sandisw]

Agree there is already some issue. However, the person who can't book at 10 months knows it was someone who is paying dues for their resort.

Seems unlikely the trust combines dues from all trust properties because of resale being restricted to the resort trust home resort they buy at. One way I would buy a resale for a popular trust resort is if it's a favorite week.

The thing is, if it is set up this way with reciprocal access, you know that when you buy.

But, until we see a second property added, we won’t know how they want to do it.

I still think the ideal would be 11 months at the property that your trust use plan is tied to, 10 months at other trust properties and 7 months for trading into all other DVC resorts via BVTC.

 

[theMoreDisneytheBetter]

If we are talking about the current units thst have not yet been declared to RIV, then those would simply be trust property if they wanted to do this and it would mean a different bucket of rooms. Whatever those rooms are would be what the trust owners have access to.

If you are talking about declared rooms, then this is why I don’t think the trust can include rooms that are already part of a current association and vacation plan.

I know Marriott’s model comes up but I don’t believe this trust has been set up the same way as that. And, Marriott has a lot more inventory, may sell and declare units differently, and may actual own whole units that they could intermix with their other systems.

Meaning, the DVC trust, because there are only 16 current resorts, all which were points based, may have been created with different terms of use.

I meant if the 25% undeclared RIV goes into the trust. Right now I can book at any time with my direct points, up to the maximum number of rooms. But under the new model I was concerned that the trust might own 25% of the points, but that it could be booked at any time up to 25% over the course of the year. Because then potentially thousands of trust owners could eventually compete with hundreds of Riviera owners and by the law of numbers, some Riviera owners would be shut out of popular times. If they instead create a Riviera-A block (75% declared, bookable by anyone with traditional points) and a Riviera-B block (bookable only by trust points) for each day that would be ok. Then the trust owners can fight it out amongst themselves and my hypothetical Riviera points would be effectively unchanged.

I hate the trust idea, by the way, especially if this is what ends up happening to all properties in 2042.

 

[ReaperMouse]

What you are buying is not into the cabins. You are buying into a trust use plan. It gives you access to any rooms activated under that plan.

What they can do is put several different trust use plans in place for diffeeent properties so when you sell, it’s why you can indeed be restricted to just the property activated under your plan.

The documents do allow for more than one property to go under the same plan but they can still set up rules for purchasing on resale any way they want.

Unless they go ROFR crazy, only resorts on sale would get added to the trust. They cannot conjure points from existing DVC.

 

[Sandisw]

Unless they go ROFR crazy, only resorts on sale would get added to the trust. They cannot conjure points from existing DVC.

That is how I am understanding it. So, only whole units still not declared could be transferred from DVD into the trust as resort property instead of going as part of the condo resort property.

 

[BrianLo]

I meant if the 25% undeclared RIV goes into the trust. Right now I can book at any time with my direct points, up to the maximum number of rooms. But under the new model I was concerned that the trust might own 25% of the points, but that it could be booked at any time up to 25% over the course of the year. Because then potentially thousands of trust owners could eventually compete with hundreds of Riviera owners and by the law of numbers, some Riviera owners would be shut out of popular times. If they instead create a Riviera-A block (75% declared, bookable by anyone with traditional points) and a Riviera-B block (bookable only by trust points) for each day that would be ok. Then the trust owners can fight it out amongst themselves and my hypothetical Riviera points would be effectively unchanged.

I hate the trust idea, by the way, especially if this is what ends up happening to all properties in 2042.

Yes, that would be what occurs. Parallel booking pools and then all pooled together at 7 months. The trust will have declared 25% of rooms to the trust and the trust can only book up until the ‘rooms’ that it has access to.

If the trust simply owned a percentage of points that it was using in the traditional sense, December wouldn’t actually be the issue for the trust to access. Savvy Trust members would burn through high priority resorts early in the year and have no high priority points left to use in December.

Functionally the trust is no different than owning at a half declared resort with Disney ‘owning’ the other half for cash rates. Disney cannot take away the high priority dates from a traditional owner, nor could the trust.


It’s one of the whole reason I disagree with people thinking you’d even be buying a ‘resort’. That defeats the point. You are buying a branded DVC point. They don’t play together with your other points until 7 months. Even if theoretically the trust can book RIV and you own RIV, the points are accessing different booking pools.

The whole reason they want to do this is because they want to start selling members on the points rather than the resort specifically. There is no decision, all the resorts are equal opportunity to book (in theory, in practice certain ones we know will be fierce). It really helps a resort like Aulani, which I actually think people want priority at… but can’t mentally commit to owning something they won’t reliably access annually. It helps Disney because they aren’t selling you on having to go annually to Hawaii (or Disneyland). You own them all, you can choose where your annual vacation is every year.

Most importantly it gets ahead of the 2042 resorts. I think the trust points are going to be actually on the more attractive side of things (assuming they include RIV, VDH and Aulani declarations). They’ll be less attractive when the real sleep around resorts start entering it… though trust owners will get happily distracted by that reality with Boardwalk and Beachclub entering their fray.

But how on earth is Disney going to sell SSR again in the future when people know more desirable resorts are coming back for a second round a few years later? The answer is they don’t, the answer is buy our trust points now and VGF is entering the trust shortly for you!


Finally I don’t think declared rooms will enter the trust and I think for a while parallel products will be offered. Specifically Poly, they want to sell current Poly owners points that ‘play with’ their current contracts and not detached trust points. The real question is will the adoption of the trust prevent Poly owners from actually getting much Poly 2 declared to Poly 1? Will they get a meager 25%? Will they go crazy and buy up tons of the resort? It’s kind of making the resale jump a dangerous decision.

 

[Flash_Sloth]

...They have guaranteed those in the cabins plan one month. What they could end up doing is not give everyone the same window who are in different trust plans, but nothing would stop them from giving owners of each only their one month. Then other direct buyers in the trust get access to the trust property snd those at all other DVC resorts get the left overs via BVTC, which could be shortened.

So, those who have deeded ownerships could simply find themselves having to stay at their home resorts more often..which, technically, is all we were promised to begin with.

Ah, if you get a 1 month priority booking for the trust resort that is your home resort, it isn't quite as bad as I was thinking if all trust owners had the same booking window for all resorts in the trust. But if you own at a popular resort and don't book during that priority booking window, you'll be fighting over the scraps.

But I thought of another confusing situation. Let's say that they split RIV to be 75% traditional deeded that has been declared into inventory, and hypothetically the remaining 25% goes into a trust. If you own traditional, at 11 months, you're limited to booking in the 75% of points declared into inventory, and you'll be competing against other traditional deeded owners. Likewise, if you own trust points at RIV, at 11 months, you'll be limited to booking in the 25% declared into trust inventory and competing against other trust owners. (They probably won't declare all 25% into inventory immediately.)

But if you own both traditional and trust points at RIV, one night might be available for deeded owners but not trust owners, or vice-versa. Right now, I have multiple deeded RIV contracts, and when I do a search & book a few nights, I can select which contract(s) are used. They might have to update the search & booking tool to work for either deeded or trust based contracts, but not both. Will they be able to stitch together mixed reservations?

This could get messy for anybody who has mixed ownerships at the same resort.

 

[BrianLo]

They have guaranteed those in the cabins plan one month.

I’m curious how this is worded. They’ve guaranteed the trust itself one month priority or the cabin? I understand the cabins are all that’s in there, but in the spirit of the language I wonder if it isn’t actually distinguishing between resorts and just the trust points themselves.

Otherwise I really question what they are achieving with the trust model. Screw over old owners is certainly a fun theory but that changes nothing for DVCR

 

[Sandisw]

Ah, if you get a 1 month priority booking for the trust resort that is your home resort, it isn't quite as bad as I was thinking if all trust owners had the same booking window for all resorts in the trust. But if you own at a popular resort and don't book during that priority booking window, you'll be fighting over the scraps.

But I thought of another confusing situation. Let's say that they split RIV to be 75% traditional deeded that has been declared into inventory, and hypothetically the remaining 25% goes into a trust. If you own traditional, at 11 months, you're limited to booking in the 75% of points declared into inventory, and you'll be competing against other traditional deeded owners. Likewise, if you own trust points at RIV, at 11 months, you'll be limited to booking in the 25% declared into trust inventory and competing against other trust owners. (They probably won't declare all 25% into inventory immediately.)

But if you own both traditional and trust points at RIV, one night might be available for deeded owners but not trust owners, or vice-versa. Right now, I have multiple deeded RIV contracts, and when I do a search & book a few nights, I can select which contract(s) are used. They might have to update the search & booking tool to work for either deeded or trust based contracts, but not both. Will they be able to stitch together mixed reservations?

This could get messy for anybody who has mixed ownerships at the same resort.

I don’t know how it might work if they decide to add units from the same resort.

My initial thought would be that when you choose a room and go to book, the behind the screens would know which bucket the room is in and only that contract would need to be used??

I really hope that they end up doing a split booking window. Thst would make the product very attractive to me.

 

[Sandisw]

I’m curious how this is worded. They’ve guaranteed the trust itself one month priority or the cabin? I understand the cabins are all that’s in there, but in the spirit of the language I wonder if it isn’t actually distinguishing between resorts and just the trust points themselves.

Otherwise I really question what they are achieving with the trust model. Screw over old owners is certainly a fun theory but that changes nothing for DVCR

The agreement says that that own a share in the Csbins Resory Use plan will receive the same guarantee all of us currently are

The difference beteeen this and the current is that they can add resort property located elsewhere into that same trust plan.

 

[BrianLo]

The agreement says that that own a share in the Csbins Resory Use plan will receive the same guarantee all of us currently are

The difference beteeen this and the current is that they can add resort property located elsewhere into that same trust plan.

I think that’s what I mean. If a new resort is added and you purchased during the Cabins window, you’d still have 11 month access at the thing added.

 

[maui22]

My initial thought would be that when you choose a room and go to book, the behind the screens would know which bucket the room is in and only that contract would need to be used??

I hope they outsource the tech to some competent outside company. I lost faith in Disney tech team from numerous failures that shouldn’t happen.